Grafted verses Own Root

I was a total fan of own roots but this year I have come around to changing to be a promoter of grafted roses for dry areas.
Here is my example why I have changed.
I had two new Mme Plantier roses side by side, one a own root from Hedgerow and the other a grafted one. Both mulched and watered the same. Th own root is dead and the other is still going though starting to look a bit sad (well it is very hot today ) eventhough it was watered yesterday morning. Also I have just noticed that it might have mosiac virus. I will take a photo of it when its cooler.
I have lost quiet a few other own roots, a few bought and others grown by myself. Then you get my tough older established own roots that got going in better years for rainfall. At the moment some of them have no mulch and in a very dry spot infront of our house in not alot of good soil. They somtimes are the last to get watered.
Also I was talking to Jenny this morning on the phone and she said about the grafted roses , in drought times the rootstock starts shooting.
So, we have just got to keep planting eigther and keep trying each year to get them established.

That's very interesting Rosemeadow. I would have thought it would be the other way around !! Luckily for me. all i have to do is to turn a tap on and i have water but for someone in your situation, it could make a big difference. It will be interesting to hear what other members on this form think about it.

There are pluses and minuses for both and these are my findings.

Grafted roses get going a lot faster than ownroot.
Ownroot usually don't start with a great amount of roots during their initial stages so are slower to grow initially.
Once established ownroot have great staying power. Some cemetery roses that are totally dead looking send up shoots after the next lot of rain.
I had a New Dawn ownroot in a 8" pot look totally dead due to being forgotten when watering. I started to water the pot again and it very quickly sent out a long shoot and then another.
Ownroot is very popular with Heritage rose groups for that reason.
A lot of roses have been found 150 years later on old farm sites. The house is gone,all that is left usually is a stone chimney, 2 or 3 fruit trees
and some old ownroot roses.
I have some HT roses that are just about finished as the rootstock ( Dr Huey ) has given up after 15 years. Another Cecile Brunner is 30 years old and looks like it will last forever on Mulyiflora rootstock.

A famous old rose nursery advocated planting with the graft below the ground and the plant will develope it's own roots.
Budding is very handy when sending cuttings long distances or wishing to produce a lot of plants quickly. Four cuttings can produce 25 plants budded but possibly 2 plants ownroot.There are a lot of advantages for both depending on what you wish to do at the time. I think it is an advantage to be able to propagate both ways to suit the circunstances at the time.

I have just had dinner and a tall glass of red and am feeling more like relaxing rather than posting so will close hoping this makes sense.

I'm repeating myself here, but basically:
I prefer own-root for better survival in drought, after mowing or other injury, after fire etc, for: Teas, Chinas, Noisettes.
Own-root "never again" (that includes planting with the bud union below the ground) (re suckering): Most species especially spinosissimas and rugosas/ rugosa hybrids, spring-flowerers in general. Some HPs and shrubs (eg Nevada) will sucker.
HTs either way- some don't seem robust enough on their own roots; I'm told this applies especially to those with a lot of pernetiana blood. If any put up understock suckers, I'll try them on their own roots.
"Never again under any conditions": R bracteata. I suppose you could get away with it in a tub provided you prevent it rooting down through the bottom of the pot.
"Never again": allowing ramblers to root down.
"Never again": prickly so-called groundcovers, especially those that root down, eg Snow Carpet.

HT's won't last on anything, Multiflora, Dr, Huey or anything, they are too fungus prone. Twelve to fifteen years is their used by date. After 30 years most roses end up with the old canes now limbs suffering from what looks like dry rot and won't even stand a strong wind without breaking. Some own root will send up more shoots particularly the older heritage roses.

We have conducted an experiment with older grafted roses that will send out their own roots. Unfortunatly modern HT's are not great rooters so suggest replacement after 10 years. Some of the older HT's are great on their own roots.

This is my suggestion :-

Dig a hole 500mm in diameter and approx 300mm deep depending on how many dead chooks, fish left overs or prawns that have gone off to place in the bottom. Don't waste your prawn heads and shells. Mix some vegetable matter like lucerne to half the original soil and form a 500mm dish which is 100mm lower in the centre. Plant the rose with the graft just slightly covered at the centre of the dish. This makes a good moisture trap collecting rain. Cover the dish shape with lucerne mulch to level with surrounding ground.
New baby roses should not be planted with the graft low but with this method the dish builds up with soil slowly.

Wish I had a camera, I have an Altissimo chip budded in April 2011 and activated last week of July 2011 which is now over 5 feet tall and has red canes from the graft right to the top.

Also have two Comtesse de Labarthe climbers, one ownroot planted March 2011 and one chip budded the same time and activated end of July 2011. The ownroot is 10" tall and the chip budded one has canes 2 metres long and covered in blooms.

My propagating mate who is a 3 generation propagator in this district can't believe the growth I get compared to his T budding.

Bruce, the cuttings catch up eventually if they are any good on their own roots... round and round we go.. where we stop.. nobody knows LOL

I have been busy relocating my 8" potted roses, tidying up the dieback and replacing labels. Nearly all have been chip budded by yours truly with the exception of a small number T grafted by others to the common industry method. After handling so many plants I was amazed how small the crowns were on the chip budded plants compared to the large crown T budded ones. This will be very beneficial when grafting minatures, however we know how well minatures strike from cuttings.
Large bulbus crowns have been reported to be a turn-off for people purchasing grafted plants.

Large graft zones are a bit of an eye-sore. And a common place for damage.

I agree Wendy, I like own root roses but will get David to bud for me some that I cant get to strike.

Having proven the small crowns resulting from chip budding are better it would seem T budded plants are much less attractive to buyers.
The older roses, climbers and minatures strike reasonably well from cuttings. How well! must add when visiting fellow rose growers I notice tubs and styrene fruit boxes filled with cuttings. Nearly all have turned black with 5% or less success rate. Other hopefuls are in clear drink bottles cut in half to cover cuttings and other low success rate situations. If you can't graft then striking from cuttings is the only option. Special equipment and housing is necessary to get results considered satisfactory for a commercial operation and knowing which plants grow enough roots to make a vigorous plant. Understocks are selected based on compatability with the buds being used, soil type and vigorous root growth. When the buds are ready for grafting the understocks have 6 months,1 year or 2 years root structure to start the buds growing. Own root doesn't even have any roots when the cuttings are planted but in a commercial environment they develope roots quickly. Unfortunatly there are plants like HT roses that have been propagated from grafting over many years and do not grow their own roots well. I can't agree all roses are better on ownroots, some will be better and others hopeless. Grafting is a skill one has to learn, not all operators get the best results. Careful alignment of the cambial layers varies even with the most skilled grafters. The CSIRO did a trial of T budding verses chip budding and they concluded chip budding was superior in all regards.
Whatever method you use to propagate use the best method for each rose type whatever that may be.

I have been going through your post Bruce and there is a lot in it.
When you talk about chip budding are you talking about using the tool you developed. I hope you got a lot of sales for it as I know you spent a great deal of time developing it.
From a time I spent learning how to propate roses at a rose nursery all of the minatures were grown from cuttings,none were ever budded.
As a lot of you will know I prefer own root roses but having said that I can take a rose and this year get 90% take next year take the same rose, same time of year, everything the same and be lucky to get 10% I would never have or show someone a box of dead sticks I always remove any dead ones.
When you say special equipment and housing what do you mean. Is that what you used your garage for?
If I remember corectly it would have been about 6 months from me de-eyeing the rootstock till it being budded. So probably about 4 or 5 months in the ground. Not sure have to check with David but I think the budders got about 95% take I know they were good.

Bruce for the backyard gardener, cuttings are probably a better option, but with the big commercial guys propagating 500+ of one cultivar you would have to imagine how many source plants you would need. Were budding you would only need a couple of plants to do that number and if your technique is good, a better success rate to boot.

Carole I gave up on the grafting tool because the understocks and sion buds came at very different sizes. The vigorous thick canes of some HT's are too big and the thinner Tea's too small. The knife I use is an Olfa snap blade knife. The quality of these Japanese blades is excellent. Unfortunatly the steel in the Chinese brands I have tried are very soft and useless. I use the first 1/2"of these blades and still have 10 fingers. That is the reason I dropped useing the tool I made. The original tool was made in a CNC mill to a program and would make repetitive exact copies forever.
A lot of industry budding practices are done for economy reasons, they don't use older understocks as I do when extreme fast growth is required. Some time ago I put an Altissimo bud on a 3 year old understock and had a plant grow to 7 feet in 6 months. Normally I use understocks planted in May, June July for November budding but if not used these can be grafted the next season. The older understocks require more care joining up the cambial layers so would not suggest doing a paddock full to start with.

last winter I budded 20 understocks end of June for a family who lost their mother to a brain disease The little children who came with their father to pick up the plants were just beautiful. I would have taken the little girl and made a sofisticated well educated young lady of her. Better for her she left with her father. The rose was a very nice mauve HT bred by Richard Walsh called Vanessa's Gift. Sorry back to the budding. Since doing these I have had people asking for the details even though they want to do probably 25 to 50 a season. These are dedicated exhibitors and more than just gardeners but as you mention not for the usual backyarder.