Grafted Tea question...

I have a couple of Teas that I've grafted onto a multiflora rootstock. They have taken and are sprouting nicely. Question is... given the almost evergreen reputation of Teas here in Australia has anyone noticed any effects of the rootstock going dormant in winter while the grafted section wants to continue growing (or at least stay green)???

Simon, what sort of temperatures are we talking. I have a tea(no name yet) here in Mudgee, seems not to go dormant, our winter can get down to -7c. In the realm of things I think if the top is growing it is most likely to keep the bottom going. The only difference between yours and mine is that mine is established. I reckon if you could keep your warm, not bottom heat, just surrounded warmth. This is if it is in a pot, let me know if it is in the paddock, I will send you some fleece to cover it for winter.

It's still on the 'mother plant' right now. OUr min. temps sound about the same as yours. Is yours grafted or cutting grown? (PS... I can get ALL the fleece I need LOL)

NO Simon, not the sheep sort , looks like cotton, but thinner. Why or how come it is on it's mother still.

I'll duck up and take a photo to show you... I grafted them onto a big multiflora plant I've got because the cuttings all arrived in a big bundle and there was only one or two cuttings of these two Tea varieties in the bundle. To improve my chances I cut off a few buds and grafted them and then planted the cuttings. I didn't have enough suitable struck multifora understocks at the time and I figured the sheer vigour of the 'mother-plant' pushing it along would help to improve my success rate. The buds have taken and the cuttings seem to have done so also so it's a win-win but the buds have only just burst so I haven't removed the multiflora bits to strike yet... I wanted to let them get a bit more size before removing them. So this is where the question arose from. The big multiflora plant will want to go dormant in a few weeks and I was wondering how that might affect the Tea which may not want to go dormant.

Simon, I am new to Tea roses, first lot planted three winters ago. You have raised an interesting point, will have a good look at mine this winter. I currently have a lot of Teas budded last December, now about 3 to 8 inches tall and some have already produced a bloom. It was about halfway between a seedling and mature bush bloom size.

I am inclined to agree with Roseman that if the top is growing then the rootstock will grow with it. The mature grafted Tea's on Multiflora go great in winter, Lorraine Lee Clg never seems to stop flowering in winter. Our temps go down to frosts with ice on the windscreens during June July.
Will have a closer look this winter.

This is great news I was re-reading old posts on the rose hybridisers forum about how the understock affects the scion and possible even exchanges genetic information with it and thinking this can't be good for the Tea. On the plus side I have also noticed that the particular multiflora understock I have remains pretty much evergreen over winter as well. It's not pure multiflora if the leaves are anything to go by and this could work in my favour. It's the one in this thread: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] The bush is now three times that size and powering along still. Thanks for the thoughts...

Here's the plant I was referring to with the grafts on it:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

There's another one the same at the other end and the pink one in the middle. They have all got buds grafted onto them of various kinds.

The grafts are not very far along so I was going to leave them on there until Spring:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Bed was freshly mulched yesterday with Myrtle Mulch... need to get some perenials in there to cover the soil now

simon have you ever tried rosa indica major for your tea rootsock, iuse nothing else for my roses, the growth rate is very good, below the graft can be as thick a broom stick in one year

I've got four plants of it (one potted one if anyone would like it), and they are ready to begin making cuttings for understocks from but I haven't used it yet... they are only two years old (from two different sources... both appear to be virus free). It still, however, goes dormant in winter for me. I have other own-root Teas here that flower all winter such as 'Comtesse de Labarthe', 'Lorraine Lee', and 'Monsieur Tillier'. All my Teas that a grafted all went dormant and leafless over winter. All the ungrafted ones stayed green and some (the ones mentioned above) even flowered all winter. My hunch is that the understock is going dormant causing the top section to also go dormant and those in more northern climates in Australia don't go dormant in winter because the understock never really goes dormant. I don't know if this is right or not as I haven't tested own root versions of the grafted ones against the grafted ones (which are on both Dr Phooey and multiflora). I was only talking to Bruce about this the other day. One of my breeding goals this year is to breed an understock for Teas down here that is evergreen all year down here in Tassie. I'm going to put Rosa longicuspis onto Indica Major to start with and maybe even bracteata onto 'Indica Major'. 'Fortuniana' doesn't like it here and longicuspis develops a root system like a willow and strikes like a weed. I have tried grafting directly onto longicuspis though... maybe that might work instead.

Simon I will graft Longicuspis onto Multiflora here also.

I have a beam balance with Ownroot benefits and disadvantages at one end. On the other end is grafting benefits and disadvantages.
The balance is well in favour of grafting but if Tea's become dormant in winter when grafted it will only take one more benefit to even the scale.

Dave Clark has been carrying out planting deep to have rootstock on the bottom and ownroot above.

In this situation it would be possible to tell when the ownroots start feeding the top. Will do the grafting first and check the theory.

I used to think I was a normal person but I am worried now that the normal people might read some of the posts on the forum, then lock us up.

Ozeboy wrote:

I used to think I was a normal person but I am worried now that the normal people might read some of the posts on the forum, then lock us up.

Join the club.

I don't reckon you will be able to tell up there Bruce... it doesn't get cold enough for them to go completely dormant. All I have to do down here is strike one like Safrano and plant them all side by side to see how they grow.

Normal??? Who'd be normal??? Not me... Normal = boring.

Not meaning to pick a fight... I'd like to see your beam balance... I personally don't reckon there is a single advantage of grafting anything except it is quick and easy... it is up to breeders to tip the tables away from grafting because it just shouldn't ever be necessary. I can only think of a few reason why you would graft. They are in order of most appropriate to least appropriate:

1. To make standards.
2. To stop suckering.
3. To secure stock obtained from cuttings/budwood because it is more reliable.

These are the ONLY reasons why I would graft anything. To propagate commercially by cutting you can do it with as little as two eyes on a stem. One eye is to make roots the other is to make shoots. I know this because I have done it with some minis and ground cover roses. One plant of 'Green Ice' got tuned into 100 small plants and it has taken two years to get them to a decent size. Sure minis propagate easier, in general, than do other roses but that wasn't always the way. People like Ralph Moore decided this was something that needed to be fixed and so ease of propagation was selected for resulting in the easy to strike minis we have today. You can trace almost every mini available now back to at least one Sequoia mini somewhere down the track. If a rose is difficult to propagate by cuttings then maybe we shouldn't be growing it. If a rose can't survive on its own roots then maybe we shouldn't be growing it. I will NOT use a hard to strike rose to breed from... period. If an understock infected with RMV is used then the variety becomes chronically infected and if an infected scion is grafted onto a clean source of understocks it is ruined. If a grafted specimen is damaged then there is a good chance it will die off and not resprout true. If an ownroot specimen is damaged, cut down to the ground even, there is a better than average chance that it will resprout true to type from the roots. An own root rose will live longer than a grafted one. The architecture of a grafted variety is not true to form because it is being pushed along by a sometimes vigorous rootstock. The most ridiculous thing EVER is seeing how minis grow grafted onto something like Dr Phooey. Own root roses are often smaller and more spreading instead of bolt upright. Grafting a non-vigorous scion onto a vigorous rootstock actually encourages rootstocks to take over... it's a logical survival mechanism in roses. If the top section of a rose becomes sick or weak then it will redirect resources from it to the roots to make new stems from strong healthy parts... if that happens to be the rootstock then you will get rootstock suckers so the idea of pushing along a less vigorous rose with a vigorous understock is counter productive and actually reduces the life of the grafted rose. I ALWAYS bury my grafts to encourage them to take over from the understock... have done so for years. If a rose is not able to take over from the rootstock then maybe we shouldn't be growing it. Grafting was traditionally used as a temporary measure... as a nurse stock to nurse more tender varieties along until they could fend for themselves. They were traditionally buried to encourage the top section to develop roots and take over. The understock becomes obsolete and dies off. If a rose can't do that now.. maybe we should be growing it. Roses have such a bad name at the moment. You have to ask why? A big part is their disease-prone reputation but maybe this is part of the problem. As breeders we should be selecting for both strong plants and strong roots. Strong roots usually translates into easily struck cuttings... I see no point in growing anything that needs babying for the sake of a few disproportionatly large flowers These points weigh so heavily in my mind that I cannot see how any other reason(s) could even begin to tip the balance in favour of grafting , but then again, I haven't really given it much thought as these points seem so convincing to me that giving it much thought seems unnecessary. So I'd be keen to hear any so that I may be more objective about it. Gotta say though... they'd need to be pretty good... mass production doesn't cut it for me. You can mass produce by cutting too... how do you think they get an understock going for each bud????

Please don't take this as being argumentative.. not meant to be... just seems to come out that way

I will respond in the near future when I have had a good nights sleep.

I won't take your post above and replies to be argumentative. The information we highlight will make interesting reading for us and interested
members. I have heard most of the ownroot stories over the past 30 odd years and have given both a lot of thought from the hobbyist and commercial point of view. There is need to use nearly all the propagation methods to suit the situations that arise. Not every piece of plant material available is perfect for one method or another.
Must point out most of the roses I have would not be available if budding was not an option. My scales still tip in favour of budding despite the points you raised in the post above.

TO BE CONTINUED.

simon

Luv your comments but as my uni lecturer told me paragraphs should be no more than 5 lines as it makes it too hard to read.

Will make comments on grafting on Propagation.

Bruce.. I think your comment that you need to use the full gamut of techniques at some times is exactly right.. I think maybe the discussion regarding which is right and so on is a bit oboslete in itself really... time and place for everything...