FOUND - Constance Spry

Anyone got any bits of 'Constance Spry' they could send me/swap for other stuff etc? I have a hunch... it was DA's first english rose and it does nicely down here... it's huge but it only flowers once. Its pollen parent; 'Dainty Maid', is remontant and remontancy is recessive, which means CS is carrying remontancy but not showing it. I would like to do CS x CS to see if a repeat flowering version of CS could be made. I think this might be of use down the track because it would be diploid and might make a good bracteata match...

Also... if anyone has 'Edith Holden' that could spare a few bits too that would be awesome.

Simon, can't help with "EH", but if you want some of this, how big a box full do want

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Will some of this do, just picture to show you and which wood do you want, Regards David.

looks good David. There was a study done on blackspot resistance too in which blackspot infection was measured in CS and it was found to have less than 5% defoliation in the study location (take with a grain of salt because climate and strain of blackspot varies across different locations will give variable results). I've never understood why a lot of breeders cross a modern with something like an OGR (like 'Belle Isis' in this case) which imparts huge amounts of vigour and health in a lot of cases (such as this) and then continue to outcross to different moderns to bring the remontancy back out again instead of selfing and so lose the advantage

As i notice Karen is online, did you not want some of her friend Lynne's Mutilbus wood ?

Yep... as we discussed on the phone David I'll take as much as you can throw at me Would you like me to post you up a prepaid package? I'll send one up just big enough to carry a few 20cm stems from just flowered stems.

Simon, no worries, is this off both plants. Last spring of CS and what of Mutilabis, I will ship.

hmmm.... 'Mutabilis' bits of semi-hardened wood I reckon.. good cutting material... can't do any budding at the moment as I have no understocks ready... but cuttings in the newspaper seem to be callousing up well for me at the moment. CS... same kind of stuff I reckon... good cutting wood would be ideal.

David, a whole bunch of those Constance Spry cuttings have struck... I have some to pass around now if anyone else would like some. I've ordered 'Edith Holden' from Misty Downs this year too.

Simon wrote:... I would like to do CS x CS to see if a repeat flowering version of CS could be made. ...

I don't think you can get the repeat flowering version of the CS like that. Something would be a trade-off, like disease resistance or less than a vigorous growth. David Austin has done that same thing, but never produced a repeat flowering CS. Instead, he used that hybrid to pass along that amazing fragrance to its offspring and he's done a great job in that.
But If I were you, I'd try to cross CS with Scepter'd Isle, or with some Noisette for example. History shows myrrh scent is very persistent and you may end up with something wonderful.

I tend to agree... Crossing it with roses more appropriate for Australian conditions makes sense. It is more out of curiosity that I want to try CS x CS. Remontancy is something I think could be brought back out, but whether or not it is like CS is completely by-the-by. Vigour would be a trade-off and this is a common side-effect of making that transition from non-remontancy to full remontancy. Energy and resources once used to drive a single flowering event must be rationed to allow flowering all year long (which is why using bracteata appeals to me as it seems to have resources in surplous to allow continuous flowering and rampant growth). The trade-off, as you mention is often less vigorous growth. In my climate Constance Spry is not overly disease resistant at the best of times.. it does show some black spot, though is nowhere near as bad as most modern roses, (another good reason to combine it with a Noisette... I'm actually loving that idea!!!) I have two sources of plants. David sent me cuttings which have struck and after he had done this I found a plant for sale in my local small nursery. It will be interesting to see how the own root one performs vs the grafted one. Another reason I wanted to try this cross is that I could not find any reference to anyone having tried it before and it seemed like a logical cross to me. I would be interested to read the source from which you got the information that DA had previously tried this cross. It might help to shed some more light on the subject for me

Simon wrote:... another good reason to combine it with a Noisette... I'm actually loving that idea!!!) ... I would be interested to read the source from which you got the information that DA had previously tried this cross. It might help to shed some more light on the subject for me

I have all David Austin's books, including the very last one ("The Rose", where he shares his opinion and intoxicating passion for all roses, but he has chosen some 800 different roses and described them in the book).

While reading about his early crosses, CS x CS came in several times. He uses -- whatever he's got from that cross -- for his breeding purposes. He also admits varieties introduced each year are not the only roses he breeds, of course, for there are some varieties and crosses his nursery will never release in public. I presume those are some 'killer' hybrids able to pass on some great characteristics onto their progeny, and obviously he wants to keep those as aces.

When looking at some of his roses introduced during the last decade, I can only try to imagine their parents -- just look at the Harlow Carr, for example, or Mayflower, Jubilee Celebration and many others ... those roses are truly remarkable. Mayflower is almost a typical Gallica, Harlow Carr looks as good as best of pink Damasks.

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//Harlow Carr with lavender//

(Mayflower its disease resistance owes to its Rugosa heritage, I've learned too, but not specified which one). But looks tells there's definitely some Gallica influence as well.

There's more to this. He says that they've tried really hard, over the decades, to get a wholly new breeding stock out of old roses, to establish an all new platform for breeding not influenced with problems many old roses suffer from. That means he breeds his new roses by not touching the gene pool of old roses (Portlands, Bourbons, etc.) any more. This means English roses have become sufficient for him (he has enough of them, both showcased and undisclosed) to create more disease resistant roses that look better and are able to repeat better.

I'm going to put 'Constance Spry' with 'Reve d'Or' and 'Crepuscule'! The CS x Noisette idea was a great one

Simon wrote:I'm going to put 'Constance Spry' with 'Reve d'Or' and 'Crepuscule'! The CS x Noisette idea was a great one

I have tried Crepuscule in 2007 with some English roses, and results are so amazing I can't talk about it now Very beautiful, very vigorous, very good disease resistance, even that young. This summer will be a deciding one, when I'm going to evaluate best of 12 hybrids I've selected out of several hundreds.
I also plan to cross some English roses with Hybrid Musks .. not decided which one yet.

PS. My early results and tests show the combination Noisette plus an English rose seems to create a true Australia-proof roses. I'll continue and share my insights.

With regard to hybrid musks... go for 'Trier'. Lens used this rose in a lot of inspirational crosses with roses such as 'Mutabilis' and the results were spectacular. I've ordered 'Trier' this year to use myself as I'm hoping to get into hybrid persica with hybrid musks as well. I'm also growing 'Cornelia' which is also worth trying and is very tough. It produces loads of OP hips and is diploid like 'Trier'. I would steer away from 'Buff Beauty' for a number of reasons. Paul Barden advised me that it tends to breed nothing but junk and it is a triploid and I want steer away from triploids if possible to avoid possible fertility issues. 'Buff Beauty' os not as vigorous here for me as 'Cornelia' is. I'm going to use 'Trier' and 'Cornelia' extensively this season as well as multiflora. My multiflora hybrids have been exceptional in growth this year (especially 'Sweet Chariot' x multiflora hybrid) and I look forward to seeing what their flowers are like in spring. 'Pax' is also a HM I grow but it seems to have limited fertility and is quite susceptible to spotting and mildew whereas 'Cornelia' has been bomb proof. I can send you a small plant of my multiflora plant that is a bit different to most multiflora (obviously a hybrid but with what I do not know... it's a truly amazing plant, however, that has proven its worth here as a garden specimen, as a parent, and as an understock) if you have some room to let it spread out.

Also, Margaret sent me some cuttings of a hybrid multiflora called 'Goldfinch' that I'm hoping to use in this capacity too. They've started callousing up and have been potted up now so fingers crossed they might be ready to strike Hybrid multiflora like 'Violette' might also be worth a shot.

This might be interesting to you:

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Thank you, I was considering Trier too. Paul Barden had some splendid results with Trier too.

Simon, this might be of interest to you, for further encouragement in your efforts.
See the image of the rose in my avatar? That's a cross between N William Shakespeare and Crepuscule. Crepuscule was the pollen parent. Cross done 2 years ago. It was growing so well I have planted it in the garden bed, between few other roses and lavender, in its special wide pot buried into soil. It is very healthy, strong wide growth. Even so young in its second year it has flushed 5 times this year and has produced a dozen little flowers. They open up to a rosette shape that looks very much like Gertrude Jekyll, albeit a bit less petals with a more tea-like quality (less silky, thus being able to be more heat tolerant).
And, yes, as the icing on the cake ... although this is just a preliminary research, the little flowers keep their fine damask scent long after cutting.
So, just go on!

Yep... I've used 'Lamarque' a bit this year with some luck... a lot of the noisettes seem to produce good things...