Storage of pollen.

Hi Simon, have a few questions regarding pollen storage.
To day I collected pollen from several Albertine flowers that ranged from quite open to very closed. The pollen in the closed buds was very clear yellow and the open ones were dark. How viable is the darker pollen?
Also I divided the pollen into 3 containers, one for use tomorrow and the other two in the freezer for use in the future. How long is it viable?
How long will the pollen held at room temperature now 28 degrees average last?
How long will the freezer held pollen last?
Will be pollinating New Dawn tomorrow and hopefully over the next week with the unfrozen, will it last that long?

Have a few crosses with Brindabella Bouquet lined up with the Tea's and have been pumping water and fertiliser into it to try and get more blooms. It's a shy bloomer so pollen will be scarce, it made 2 hips last season with 4 seeds in each which are now in the refrigerator. The leaves are quite small which suggests it's ancestory has had minature breeding in it's background. The breeder has become quite famous for breeding healthy climbing minatures. Brindabella Bouquet does not get Blackspot at all so it is possible to find a rose that is resistant even in my humid climate.

The open mated seedlings from 2008 are blooming and have a deep red that looks interesting despite being 100% HT. The 2009 seedlings are nearly 8" high so they are doing very well also. Am looking forward to having some quality breeders this year so can get rid of all those HT's and English roses.

The dark pollen should still be good. It loses viability pretty quickly but should still be fairly effective as we are only talking a few days old.

Pollen in the freezer, will last a long time so long as it had been dried properly before freezing. I froze pollen in Autumn for use next spring and it seems to have done the trick. I have heard of pollen staying viable for over a year in the freezer.

Pollen at room temp. will lose viability quickly. I personally don't use pollen that has been sitting around after a week. 24-48 hours is best.

Pollen prepared today will last until tomorrow for use.

Ease off on the fertiliser... roses set seed much better when they are a little hungry.

The seeds in the fridge now may need to wait until Autumn to be sown because it will just be too hot up there to allow germination to occur.

Don't throw your HT or DA away just yet Bruce.. you never know whether you might need to go back to them to consolidate a feature you are trying to develop and don't forget the benefit of allowing your seedlings to develop OP hips to sow. Most OP hips are due to self pollination... this is an excellent way to bring recessives like remonatancy back out again.

Bruce,
one additional information,
good drying of the pollen will help a lot. You will find the whole story [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

fertile regards
Bernhard

Thanks Simon and Bemo, looks like I have to get Silica Sachets to make sure it is dry enough.
Actually I waited until 4pm after a very warm 31 C clear sunny day for collection thinking all will be as dry as field drying could be. In some instances the closed very yellow stamens tended to stick to the scissors and wall of the clear plastic collection container. Didn't know if it was static from the plastic or stickyness.

Pollination is a totally new area for me and am sure other questions will arise as I go along.

Looks like I will need about 5 Brindabella to get enough pollen and hips.
Our laws allow us to bud for our own use so will get onto that.

Simon I have found the older David Austin roses seem to be the most unhealthiest ,have kept Scepter'd Isle, Gertrude Jekyll and Grace but the other 20 have or nearly been thrown out. Space is a problem now, age prevents me from cultivating a lot of un necessary roses. I am budding 500 in pots this season which is not ideal but am going to get back to field budding next season and try about 1000.

Thanks once again Bemo and Simon for your words of wisdom.

Hi Ozeboy. While on this subject of pollen/seeds, could you give me some information on seeds. I still have those hips i had with me in Sydney and haven't done anything with them yet. After you take your hip from the bush, how long do you have before you can use the seed ?? Does the hip have to completely dry out before you use the seed ?? Any info you can supply will be appreciated !!

Dave... what kind of rose did the hips comes from? Some rose's seeds (achenes), like rugosa, actually lose viability if they dry out much. With them it's often better to leave them on the bush as long as possible and begin stratification as soon as they are pickedm, however, I've still had pretty good germination from dry rugosa seeds. You don't need to wait until the hip is comepletely dry. In fact one method of stratification is to leave them in the hip, put the hip in a ziploack bag with some moist peat, and stratifiy the whole lot. Up there you could probably stratify now and sow in autumn or even winter and still get good survival. Down here I pick hips at the end of Autumn and stratify them for most of winter and sow in spring.

Simon, the hips are from roses that wedge found in his travels around NSW and I have some when he came here. I might loose a lot of them. I opened them 4 days after he left placed them into a mix in a flat and then put them on our propagation bench, this was done on the 2nd Nov, will keep all posted on outcome.

roseman wrote:...the hips are from roses that wedge found in his travels ....

jumping hips

Bernhard, he told me "they" fell into his pockets as he walked past the roses, I think this has happened to a lot of us, you included if my memory serves me right

AH HAAA !!!!!! The plot thickens !!!!!

Dave, I use Henry Kusker's methods, he is on the net and have found him to be just so helpful. He is a big name in the RHA so give his methods a try.

Dave, Henry Kuskers methods are a little different from most I have read on the forum though I have had very good results with open mated (Pollinated)
seeds. My current problem now getting pollination down pat, first attempt was yesterday and have a few questions for the experts.

Question, the 24 hour stored pollen did not seem to give off a pollen dust?

Question, I rolled the brush around in the collected stamens that were 24 hours old since clipping, will this have the necessary pollen to fertilise the stigma? Will pollinate these again tomorrow.

Sorry to bore you with the basics but just anxious to know if my progress is all right.

Henry is a retired chemistry professor and is very much into the science of rose breeding. He is a very helpful person, as Bruce has mentioned, with lots of excellent advice. He has a website too... I don't have it at the moment but will go looking

Question, the 24 hour stored pollen did not seem to give off a pollen dust?

Not all anthers will release pollen (dehiscing) no matter how much you try. I find the best bet is to use HMF as a guide first. Look up the variety on HMF and then look at its descendants. If it has none then it can mean a few things; no one has thought of it, it is sterile (or nearly so), the seeds don't germinate easily, or it is disease ridden and not a worthy parent. If it has descendants, look at how it is used. The first name mentioned in the pedigree is the seed parent. The second the pollen parent. You will find that some varieties are used more often as pollen parents than they are seed parents (and vice versa). This will give you some idea of how they will behave. Of course, the results on HMF are not conclusive because a lot of a plant's habits are determined by the climate in which it grows so what doesn't work in one place might be awesome in another. Having said all this... it only takes a tiny amount of pollen to pollinate a hip so even if it looks like there is none there it's still worth trying.

Question, I rolled the brush around in the collected stamens that were 24 hours old since clipping, will this have the necessary pollen to fertilise the stigma? Will pollinate these again tomorrow.

Forget the brush Bruce. They are a pain in the back-side. A finger works just as well. What I do is cut the flowers off into a small container and leave the anthers to dehisce.

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The time this takes to occur will vary with the variety, the temperature, and how old the flower is. Some flowers will take 24 hours to be ready to use whilst others, if done early in the morning, will be ready to use by the end of the day. I will leave the anthers in the container without a lid on to allow moisture to escape (putting a lid on during this time can cause condensation to build up inside the container spoiling the pollen) and when dry I'll put a lid on and shake the container vigorously. Whilst drying the anther will dehisce and shed its pollen. Shaking the container vigorously helps to dislodge the pollen and spread it over the walls of the container where it will cling (by static attraction). It will end up looking something like this:

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It is now ready for freezing if this is what your intention is. It is also ready to use immediately. I don't use a brush to pollinate because a brush needs to be sterilsed each time you us it or a clean one used each time. It is very easy to just remove the lid of the container and swoosh a finger around in the pollen and then use your finger as the pollen applicator directly to the sitgma of the previously emmasculated seed parent's flower. Then I just stick my finger in my mouth to clean it, let my finger dry or give it a wipe on my shirt (don't wear your sunday best ), and then do it again on the next flower. There is a lot of talk about when to emmasculate the flowers and when to pollinate... but to be honest it's not really necessary to separate it all out. I emmasculate the flowers and pollinate at the same time. The chosen seed parent flower will be one that is just about to open that has not already released its own pollen. A good swish around in the pollen and a dab on the stigmas is all that is needed. The stigmas get more sticky as they become more receptive and you can wait around for this to happen if you have the time but in my experience it isn't necessary. I just pollinate in the morning or in the evening (not when its real hot) and rely on the inherent stickiness of the pollen to allow it to remain there until the stigma is fully receptive. I place a small mesh draw-string bag over the pollinated flower to exclude insects for four days and then remove it as the stigmas are no longer receptive after this period. I put a small label around the pollinated flower and then leave it to do its thing. I actually prefer pollinating in the evening on a warm night... just my personal preference... nice way to finish off a day after spending all day at work. One tip... wash you hands thoroughly before you do it to remove any traces of substances that may contaminate the pollen and reduce its viability. I've taken to not even using my finger lately... The pollen sticks to the lid of the container pretty easily so I've been shaking the container, unscrewing the lid, and wiping the lid itself on the stigmas, screwing it back on, shaking and repeating the process. Very quick and easy.

TIPS:

1. Know your seed parents and pollen parents! Different varieties will behave in different ways. It can be very difficult to find seed parent flowers at a suitable stage because even when not fully open they release their pollen. Multiflora hybrids are notorious for this and I have the same trouble with 'Altissimo'. It's really difficult to get to these before they have self pollinated themselves. I get to these ones whilst they are still relatively tight buds.

2. Some varieties have self-pollinating barriers. Rugosa is like this. They will self-pollinate but not very often. If you get OP hips on species rugosa it is a good bet they are from a cross pollination with something around them. I have only recently learnt that diploid polyatha have similar selfing barriers.

3. Leave some petals on the seed parent flower. It is meant to improve the success rate of pollination. Best way to do this is remove all but the outer layer of petals before pollinating. This helps identify which flower is which too. Handy if you are pollinating a hundred flowers on the same bush.

4. Repeat pollinate. Pollinating twice, on successive days, has been shown to improve hip set. BUT. Sometimes you can get so many seeds developing that you can get a large number of exogeneous seeds (develop on the outside of the hip) and these have been shown to have reduced viability. I still sow them but don't hold my breathe.

5.Remove all the anthers on the seed parent flower (emmasculation) to reduce the chance of self-pollination. I use a small pair of pointy tweezers from my fly-tying kit. You can use small pointy scissors... I just prefer the tweezers.

6. Try the cross both ways... When you emmasculate the seed parent flowers keep the anthers to see if you can collect pollen from them and use this to perform the same pollination in the opposite direction.

7. Don't dismiss miniatures to use in your work. In general, miniaturisation is a dominant trait. This means it can hide standard sized genes. Crossing a miniature with a miniature can sometimes result in full sized roses and crossing minis with full sized roses, especially if one of the parents of the mini is a full sized rose, will often result in more full sized roses. Again... HMF is your friend. If you haven't paid for a subscription you should because it is the rose hybridiser's BEST friend. Minis often have excellent flower production... a trait that can be passed on to full sized progeny.

Ok... I think that's about it... that reminds me... I need to go remove some pollen from the freezer for tomorrow...

Yellow thumbs

Simon, thanks for the help, thought it would be easy to pollinate but there is so much to learn. One would think applying a bit of pollen to the centre of a flower would be so simple.
I have a reputation amoungst the family that I am dogmatic and will never give up. Looks like I will need all these traits to be a successiful pollinator.

It is easy Bruce... the KISS principle works perfectly with roses

Wedge ,I have had a good sleep and nothing super urgent to do so here is my method of seed germination based mainly on Henry Kuska's methods.
Bear in mind I have only been doing this for two seasons so I too have a lot to learn. When David Clark ( Very knowledgeable re germinating seeds)was visiting he mentioned my germination rate was very good. It's always good to have a benchmark and know if you are on the right track.

I would put those seeds aside and allow them to dry out as you can place them in the fridge about next June then bring them out around middle of August when it's not real hot.

Secure some beach sand and wash thoroughly to remove salt. Allow to dry and place in an oven for 2 hours at 280 C. Do not use bush sand as it usually packs down too hard .

Secure 12 or so clear or opaque flat square take away food containers and place 1" of the prepared sand in each. Dampen the sand with a mixture of 190 mil water with 5mil of 6% Hydrogen Peroxide. Check the sides of the container to check the sand is damp and the top of the sand is moist but not wet.

Remove the seeds from the hips and make a decision wether to place them in the containers as is or sandpaper them. The other method is to remove the outside coating by tumbling or blasting with sand. Kusker uses a mixmaster or blender with the blades blunt .
I didn't remove anything and just planted them on top of the sand just as they came out of the hips.

Check the moisture level in the sand at weekly intervals by side vision, feel moisture on top of sand also condensation in the underside of the lid.
To get it right initially either add more moisture using the mix or add sand if too moist.

Place the containers with seeds on top of sand in the refrigerator, not the freezer, next June if you can place a cool red light in the refrigerator then do so as red light will improve germination. Red cellophane over the containers will also do the same thing. Turn light on in the morning and off when you go to bed.

Middle of August when the sun is weak remove the containers and place on a window sill where they get limited sun but a lot of daylight.
The seeds will start opening over the next 6 weeks and roots appear.
When the roots are about the length of the diameter of the seeds I remove them into Jiffy pots as there is no nutrition in sand.
I saturate the jiffy pots and squeeze to close up the dimple at the top, then place the end of a twist tie in to make a hole for the root to be placed in. Once in place I gently squeeze the jiffy pot so the root is contacted all round. From here the growth is quite exceptional.
From here they go into 4" pots when the weather cools and allowed to remain there until placed outside during winter. As the season warms up next spring this hardens them off so they remain outside.
Don't expose to frosts during winter, bring them in overnight or if forgotten wash the frost off before the early morning sun hits them.

That"s just about it from a backyard propagator practicing backyard genetics.
If Simon can come up with Henry's site then read it very carefully as he has a lifetime of experience gleaned from his profession and hobby interests.
His articles are terrific but makes me feel I should have furthered my education. We learn by our mistakes so made sure my three children went to university.

The reason I am anxious to get the storage and pollinating to a fine art is because some of the breeders don't flower together at the same time.

Simon, I need to get it right for some of the breeders don't flower at the same time

Yes... that's a big pain... and why I've been collecitng the once flowering rose pollen lately. So long as it's dry it will last a long time in the freezer.

Thanks Ozeboy. I have taken a copy of that for future reference. I've got a feeling i'm going to need it in a big way around June next year !! I'd really like to get some hips from Tea roses but not sure where to get those. Maybe some kind hearted soul on here may be able to help me out. If not Tea roses, then i'm open to suggestions.

You are welcome to pieces of mine once they get a little size Dave... Just have to wait a year or two

I'm a new inductee into the world of Teas too and only have a few so far; 'Comtesse de Labarthe', 'St Francis Xavier', 'Lady Hillingdon', 'Francis Dubreuil' (most say this is a HT not the original Tea called FD), 'Mons. Tillier', 'Souvenir de MME Leonie Veinnot', 'Safrano', and 'Lorraine Lee' (bush form)... all of them under a foot tall at the moment

Dave Clark... how about this! The little 'Mons. Tillier' cutting I told you was struggling has suddenly burst out new shoots from below the ground. I reckon it will be right now

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Bruce... I was having trouble getting some anthers to release their pollen over the weekend using my normal method and came to the conclusion that they were drying unsually in a way that was probably preventing the pollen from being released. The varieties were ones I usually have no trouble with that have proven to be produce loads of pollen. So I went looking for information on just how much 'assistance' the anthers could be given to release their pollen and found this: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

I'm heading off now to crush the anthers and do some pollinating before it gets dark.

Thanks a million Guy's , have dry pollen stored in the freezer and pollen coating the inside of the plastic containers. Have also pollinated a number of flowers three times and after 3 days removed the gauze bags. Used the finger pollen applicator which as you mentioned Simon seems to be the best for me
All I have to do is get some hips from these hand pollinated roses. It is easy to see why Don Juan is used so extensively as it's so easy to work with. Have used pollen from Brindabella Bouquet as it doesn't set a lot of hips. Rosa Superba ( Unregistered ) from Green E plants is a real healthy robust grower and is a real hip machine. It caught my attention there as it was growing by itself in the paddock opposite looking so good when all others were covered in Blackspot.

Have found it very interesting but very time consuming, thanks once again for your help.

Simon, Brindabella Bouquet had a large flush in November, no doubt brought about by plant maturity. I budded about 5 so when these mature pollen should be plentiful . I am very aware none of these can be given away or sold as they are patented. I make this note to let everyone know I respect the breeder for the hard work breeding a Blackspot free rose.

The Don Juan hips pollinated with Brindabella Bouquet ( Prolific producer of large hips) have stopped growing in size so am waiting for them to ripen for collection. This is my first lot of yours truely pollinated hips so hope there is fertility and much excitement to come.

Simon, I used the finger method to pollinate and the whole process is looking a lot simpler now.

Bruce... I'm going to place an order for 'Don Juan' seeing as it seems so fertile for you and seems to enjoy the heat. I have been advised on more than one occassion that the key to difficult breeding is to find a fertile 'bridge' variety... the kind of rose that accepts lots of different pollens and can make the leap from infertile offspring to possibly fertile offspring. I'm using 'Altissimo' for this reason. It's a great rose here but I'm fully aware that it isn't everywhere but it has accetped every pollen I've put on it and I think I've made an important step forward in my quest to breed hybrid persica (hulthemia). I've managed to get my hybrid persica; 'Euphrates', to form a hip on it (and am crossing my fingers it lasts the distance). I think 'Don Juan' could be used in exactly the same way. It's not always about breeding bullet proof roses in a single step... sometimes you want other properties from a rose... in this case fertility. Sometimes you just have to make the cross stick first and then work on improving it in other areas... which is why breeding takes such a long time