closed thread

[Guest]

Simon I know how you feel about it, you have made it very clear on other occasions. But I do think that some people out there reading this, just might have a stop and think about what they are doing. That is provided it can be discussed. If no one can discuss the cons of your opinions as they see it, than is not a discussion, it is lip service to your opinion only.

You want to buy body bag roses go right ahead. But they are not the quality you would get from a reputable grower and it is directly affecting the likelihood of reputable growers being around in the future. This is my opinon and has nothing to do with your finances. It has only to do with the decision and the effect of that decision. It is not personal.

[The Lazy Rosarian]

Cree, I think you should re-read the terms of use, they are pretty clear on slanderous remarks, if you have said them. Yes I have bought bagged roses. They came from The Rose Company in S.A. The product was not inferior otherwise I would not have purchased them. I do not think the owner Roslyn Comley would like to see or here of your opinion. As a licensed grower of Burgundy Iceberg the person that raised would have faith in her, would you not think, surely Big W have some checks and balances on quality. MY opinion only on the rose thing, but the terms of use are clear.

[Guest]

Oi my opinion of body bag roses , are the left over's that the growers sell on line. I have purchased before on line and got ripped off No come back, packaging very pooor ect.... my first rose gardens where from bagged roses and I am more than happy, my best yet is my white berg, Simon 's fav . of all of my very healthy bushes . I am with on a budget go for the 'bags' worked for me esp if a newbies to roses etc.... if and when your confident you can buy other stuffs that cost a lot more Each to their own I say, just look at the craps I get from the bins at work, some amazings stuffs, nearly dead , al come down to the conditions they are grown in and all this comes from trail and orror which we learn from season to season .

I gets of me

[Guest]

Hey roseman I'm having a dinner party next week. I don't know too much about wine. Where can I buy some good quality wine, something nice that the folks will enjoy? There is a really nice little wine shop here, all selected local vineyard wines, but the cheapest is $18.00 a bottle. Can't I find something just as good of quality but for around around $4.00 a bottle?

Back on topic, slander.
Well an awful lot of people are saying the same thing.

I'm a great believer in the saying 'You get what you pay for' and the same applies to buying a rose. If you buy bargain offers, you can end up with poor and inferior plants, so be cautious. That rose might look really good in a flyer that comes with a gardening magazine, but when it arrives, you may be disappointed with its size and quality. It really is worthwhile to invest some money in top-quality plants. You need to go to a reputable grower or a reliable garden centre who offer quality stock that they're prepared to stand over.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Dept of Agriculture
""Bargain" roses, sold at extremely low prices, are often culls from the growing field and are below the grading standards for the lowest grade. Extreme care in selection is advised. They are not generally a bargain."
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Cheap bargain roses are disappointing in the quality and quantity of the blooms. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]


I digress. Here is the same thing on a more serious but similar issue. Do not buy puppies from pet stores..poor quality and not the 'right' thing to do. So is everyone saying this slanderous too? BTW all these people also say to go to a reputable breeder to get your puppy.
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How about the government bill that says the same thing, they are trying to make into law. In brief the law will say you can not buy puppies from a pet shop..to protect the consumers from poor quality and the dogs from a cruel life. Further they are trying to make it law that only reputable breeders in the Kennel club can breed dogs in NSW. Slander agaist pet shops and non kennel club breeders too?

Please feel free to promote Big W as your rose nursery of choice, that is your opinion. I however disagree and think it is poor advice to give the public reading this list, to go hunt around bargain stores for the cheapest priced rose they can find. Buying roses from reputable rose nursery is the best advice to get quality healthy well grown plants for your garden, in my opinion.

So to be fair, you got in your Bug W plug, so now I will get in my recommendations of reputable rose nurseries, just in case someone wants to know. These nurseries can give you personal, expert and professional advise to help in your rose selections.

Goldenvale. The best roses I have ever gotten in Australia came from them. Large very well grown plants with extensive root systems, exceptional quality. Good selection of a lot of different classes of roses. Also is a breeder of roses. If this long standing 2nd generation rose nursery closes down it will be a real shame. Lots of lesser know roses not on the list. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Thomas For Roses. No web site. 08 8389 7795 [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] Huge selection of all classes. Very good collection of warm climate roses. I think they have the largest collection of old HT's in the country. Big list of rugosas. Quality grown plants and I believe they do ship to all area. Call or email for catalogue. A nursery we certainly need to support.

Ross Roses, large selection of Ozzie bred roses as well as all classes. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Hedgerow Nursery. Under new ownership. History of quality roses, large selection of DA's and modern roses. I believe they ship to all areas. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

[Guest]

What about magicgardenroses

[Guest]

What about them? I have never got roses from them so can not recommend them. If you think they are a good nursery then by all means give them a plug!

[Guest]

Just I have only bought 2 from them and I ring em all the time and no probs ?? that was all , I was of the opinion you only posted whom you had made purchases from

[Guest]

.. and also have helped out with a lot of ID's over the years as well , no Q??'s asked, just more than willing to help

[Guest]

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Oi you got any of these Cree , they are great stuffs !!

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Mmmm yes needs a few bucks to get em but they are worth it

[Admin]

Ok... let me define slander in a way easily understood by all... slander is when you mention by NAME any place or person in a manner that could be argued will, or might, affect their ability to conduct their business. This is a closed forum with viewing rights reserved to members only... so I have taken steps to protect members against things like this to help preserve the myth that freedom of speech exists but anybody can join too.

Now, let me see the number of times that comments have been made here that could be construed as being slanderous.

The post that started this BS mentions Swanes specifically and a broad blanket comment was made lumping bagged roses as coming from non-reputable sources... let me see... are you accusing Swanes of being non-reputable? If so I would be interested to hear more... please do go on.

Then there is Knights Roses... I wonder what they would think of being named specifically in the opening thread and then being lumped in this disreputable bunch of charlatans who are selling off their sub-standard roses to the unsuspecting public.

There is David Austin whose roses you have said will probably prove to be crap.

Then there is Big W. Someone wise once told me... pick your fights carefully... This is one fight I would not want to pick.

Now... Deb... I want you to know that I have been doing this forum thing for a VERY long time. In fact a friend and I started the first two EVER Australian internet forums a very long time ago... and I make the rules here and I expect everyone to follow them because I have seen crap that you would never believe to be true. I have seen lawsuits started for less than this and I can tell you for a fact that I am not immune to someone's stupid comments because as forum owner I am partly responsible for it being published... leaving it here in a moderated forum can be interpretted as me approving it which consequently makes me partly liable for what you say. That's why I have a terms of use document that spells out very clearly DON'T mention any business by name. This much has already been challenged and upheld in US courts and a precedence set. Take a stab at any business you like but just don't name or identify them explicitly. I can provide you with some bed time reading that gives forum owners nightmares. So when I say your posts are slanderous it is not open for discussion and I expect it to be fixed and failure to do so will be taken as a sign to me that you have no intention to and I will follow the terms of use document to the letter and suspend your account. This is not a democracy. I am not innocent of such comments myself and can think of at least one I need to change myself so that it complies with my own expectations. No one is above it.

Consider this me telling you your comments could be considered slanderous and you need to fix them.

Now... onto the real issue here... I feel I would like you to know more about me and what I do... just so any further comments you make will be better informed and based on something more than a fleeting brain explosion. Now... When I moved back to Australia I proceeded to buy roses and renew my interest in breeding roses. My own life-history in roses and nurseries in general goes back a long way... you could say I was born into it and have never known anything different. My Grandparents owned an specialist orchid nursery, exporting blooms to Southeast Asia and all over Australia and I would help with this from a very early age... I too digress a little... In the past year I have bought some bagged roses because I cannot resist them if I see something that sparks my interest. BUT. I have bought in excess of $1000 worth of roses this year alone from ONE specialist rose nursery not yet mentioned here and they have been of exceptional quality and excellent variety. One rose in particular cost me about $50 by the time it got here for a single specimen. I paid it because I really wanted it for my breeding projects and I could not find it anywhere else. Of the bagged roses some are still doing nicely while others have since gone to God for one reason or another. So here's the thing. Now that you know this about me, it raises the question how do you know no-one else actually did the same thing? You don't. You are assuming AGAIN and you know what assuming does... it makes an ASS out of U and ME. You are assuming that everyone here doesn't already know that bagged roses come with their own risks and that they haven't just gone.. stuff it... what the hell... if it grows it grows... if it doesn't well it's not like I mortgaged the house to get it. This is the real issue. You don't know anything about any one of us to make those broad sweeping statements. I also have no proof to say they didn't already know this and if I wanted to make a point I would do it more diplomatically so as not to get people's back up (which you have done here... I can tell you I have received more than one message tonight from people you have offended... and I too am angry about this... an apology would be nice). There is no one lurking here reading these comments who might not know a rose from a petunia because viewing is restricted to members only and you would be embarrased I am sure if you knew exactly how out of line these comments are if you actually knew more about who you were saying them too. We have people here who have spent their entire lives generating income from their horticultural skills who already know the benefits of buying quality stock. Fruit growers have known this for hundreds of years and we have orchardists here who now grow roses. We have scientists, hybridisers, farmers, executive members of the Heritage Roses in Australian Inc organisation and other state rose society bodies and so on as members here... we have growers who have been growing for more years than I have been alive on here... don't you think you are preaching to the converted??? What proof do you have that they don't already know all this? It only comes across as you pushing your own agenda... Who is to say what is really worth having? Who are you to define that for anyone? I would like you to go back and re-read the posts that compelled you to comment in nthe first place and find for me the specific part that anyone says they recommend a chain store for anything really In fact go back and find me the place where anyone recommended anything or did anything except state what they had done in the past? There was never any mention of anyone saying they recommend you do this. In fact there was one comment that says that buying a lot of these bagged roses comes with a caveat... so why did you feel the need to comment at all separately? Was it just to stir and snipe at people? You say it was not personal but how can it be anything else? What ARE your motives here in posting this? Mine, originally, was to express my surprise at bagged roses being in stores already and surprise at how much more expensive they are this year (if you get what you pay for does this mean they are better this year???). You can see where I am going with this...

Feel free to comment on this... I value all opinions... but let this be a warning to you... I am tired of the cheap shots at me and the other members, I am tired of the argumentative manner when if you just tried to be nice about things you could contribute so much more. Make a choice Deb... You can PM me your decision or call me on 03 6428 3310 to tell me in person because personally I am over it. You have offended me tonight because your comments were personal and partly aimed at me and people who I have grown to love and I am angry about it. If you don't like this TUFF... you can always go somewhere else.

[Barbara B]

Hi,
personally speaking, I always look at the cheap bagged roses and have bought some beauties over the years, but you don't find the less common roses amongst them very often.
I've bought from Golden Vale Nursery in Benalla a few times and can thoroughly recommend them. Great plants, well packaged, prompt delivery and a few freebies thrown in. Not only were there a few freebies, they were of a matching type to what I was buying. How's that?
I've bought from Swayne's and been pleased with their service and plants too.
I've also bought from another firm and received rotten spindly little plants and not one made it. They'd been out of the ground for far too long.
I only buy from the big nurseries because I can't buy certain roses as bagged roses. I consider the big nurseries too expensive. I don't consider that I have any obligation to support a business that's run for the profit of others. It's up to the businesses to meet the market.
Not having money to throw around, I will always look for the bargains and a bagged bare-root rose is certainly a bargain.
Barbara B

[Guest]

Since the persons on this board reading these posts are well versed and they have expressed to you I am off tract, then I trust your statement and I must have very mistaken ideas. I retract my statements and apologies for stating that roses should be gotten from reputable rose nurseries and we need to support these nurseries with our dollars.

Discount stores, hardware shops and Big W are great places to buy roses!

So in light of my mistaken ideas, I do have this insight.
This year it is a great year to get out there and shop around to find some great deals on roses! With the economic down turn, years of drought and roses offered at reduced prices at shops all over town, it is likely that some specialty rose nurseries are scrambling to stay afloat. Some of these nurseries just may go under this year. Keep your ears open for going out of business sales! This could be the last opportunity to get some of these hard to find roses in Australia.

[Betty]

Deb, it's not just the rose nurseries going out of business. Sadly my favorite nursery in Horsham closed their doors not so long ago, but not surprising when , one time I was in there, the owner told me I was the only customer she'd had all day. The drought is pretty bad in our area of course. Things is though that she had some very nice roses, and NOT cheap. More expensive than if I put in a mail order somewhere, but at least I could buy one or two each time I shopped. With my 11 dogs, if I dared to sit down and work out a proper order for roses, one of them will think up a way to run me up another huge vet bill. LOL. I don't try anymore. I did buy 10 roses when she closed down. As for bagged roses. I think when you are just starting, like me, well, you don't have any, so what seem common to the experts, look pretty good to me. I'm learning though. There are some superb roses that might replace the common ones.

[Ozeboy]

Hey! buying the rose in the first place is the cheap part of rose growing.
Will take 2 to 3 years to develope that rose to a reasonable size. Look at the fertiliser, water,time and if you are a sprayer, chemicals are just so expensive. Weather you pay $7.50 or $15 is really not that important. I place a lot of importance on healthy well grown plants, what's personal satisfaction worth in $$$$$value. I think it is better to minimise your risk of having a dud and buy from a nursery with a reputation for quality.

I have bought from Magic Garden Roses and found their quality and service second to none.

Re slander, most of the heritage nurseries have the backside out of their pants and don'y have legal money. Woolworths are possibly too busy counting their money and planning future growth to be bothered with anyone on a small forum. If you were to take out a back page advert in one of the Sunday papers to slander Woolworths then that would be big trouble, Bib T not Big W.
The radio announcer Alan Jones has a go at anyone that deserves a serve but rarely ends up in court.

[orchid40]

A very interesting thread, this one. I would like to put my two pennyworth in also. I have bought many of the bagged roses in the past, and also bought from so-called reputable rose growers. I believe that it's the luck of the draw. I have had some wonderful bagged roses from chainstores, I have had dearer roses from nurseries that have never thrived and either got disposed of or died before that happened.
That's just my experience, and I'm sure there would be others who would agree.
I have no desire to argue the point, I just speak from personal experience.
Val

[Carole]

Val, I have to agree with you, we have 2 chainstores B & BW I have had good results from them. Like any rose I buy I check the bud union and the strength of the stems from it. We have no rose growers here. I buy from nurseries only when we are traveling past one and they have something I want and I do the same check. I have never ordered a rose to be posted to me as I like to look at it first. After all this some grow much better than others, I have a "Heritage" that I have had for about 6years that is not that much bigger than when I purchased it, but I still keep it and live in hope. The only ones that realy upset me if they don't grow are ones I get as presents. I am sentimental about presents so if one died I would have to replace it and lie through my teeth about how fantastic it is. Carole

[Guest]

Just some thoughts about some of the above

There are lots of reasons that a transplanted rose might fail. One main reason is poor handling between the time it is dug and you plant it.

There are several methods of handling bare root roses.
First is to dig the rose just prior to putting it in the box and shipping directly to buyer, this likely the best.
The second is to dig the rose and then heel it in until such time as it is boxed and shipped, likely the next best.
The third is to dig the rose, pack in a body bag and then put it in a box. It is then sent to the store or nursery that will sell it to you. (I'll back up a bit, there are a number of rose nurseries that buy in some or all of the rose they send out in mail order to you, so getting a rose from a rose nursery does not nessecarly mean they grew it, or it has not been already been several days or weeks traveling to them prior to being sent on to you, I ask them about this). When the rose arrives at a store, it gets put out on display, and it can be there a day or weeks before you buy it and plant it. This method is the worst method.

When I say better or worse, I mean that there is an increased likelihood of something negative happening to the rose that affects it's chances of doing well. Roses stored in plastic bags and sold at stores or nurseries, roses that are shipped from growers to sellers and then mailed on to you, all may be weeks out of the ground. The risk that they have been affected by temperature, dryness, sunlight and so forth increases everyday the rose is on hold. The faster the rose goes from it's original home to it's new home the better.

Another reason the plant can fail is poor care, site prep, to much or too little water and so on in it's new home.
Yet another reason is the rose it's self is not a robust plant, not all named roses on the market are created equal, some are very weak plants.
Another reason is the rose is wrong placement, too much shade, does not tolerate humidity, soil PH does not suit it, the list can be extensive, I am sure we have all moved a rose that was not doing well to find it thrived in the new location.

We have all had new roses that failed to thrive, in many cases we do not know why. For me, the decision to buy from a nursery that grows and digs their own roses and sends them quickly from their ground to mine is a big plus. Not all rose nurseries do this and certainly body bag roses have not been handled this way.

Selection and preservation.
I am going to town today to look at body bag roses. I have a feeling but may be proved wrong, that I will not find any of the roses I am interested in, warm climate roses or old 1900-1930 HT's. I think I will find mostly non PDR HT's and Floribundas, a few PRD modern roses, at best maybe a Cecile Brunner or Crepuscule or something like that.

So if we can say that price and local convenience is the priority in buying roses, that selection is not highest on the list, then the body bag discount store roses will always win out. So what will happen to all of these other roses that are not sold at discount stores?
If the rose nurseries (with the exception of those large nurseries that bring in the latest PDR's) all fail, where will we find a rose that is not on the discount stores best sellers list? Does it matter if they are available at all? Is Freesia, Gold Bunny, Graham Thomas and a couple of other yellow roses enough of a choice?

I think preservation of the 'not a best seller at the discount store' roses as a very important issue. I see the rose nurseries as vital to the preservation and distribution of these roses. With out these nurseries these roses will not be available to us, it is that simple. I have read posts here from people looking for gigantea, old AC roses, rugoasas, laevigata, teas and many more, can you really find or order these roses at the discount store? If not, where do you turn to find them?

See, I don't care is the local discount store makes money selling roses. I do care if the rose nursery where I was able to find that tea rose I wanted makes money. I want them to be there next year when I am looking for another rose and they are the only nursery in the country that has it. So I buy all my roses from these nurseries, it is my way to help make sure they are around next year, helping to insure these roses are available to me and everyone else.

I am now off to Target and Big W to look for Brisbane Beauty a rose which is on my wish list. Frankly I am not an impulse buyer of roses, gave that up a long time ago. But I can certainly see how someone could go to a shop to buy a rug for the bathroom and come home with a rose, in fact that store is banking on you doing this. I can honestly say I would never go to a store that sells bolts, rugs, bed sheets and dog food to go rose shopping. Will the clerk who is working today in the plant, outdoor furniture and lighting department know what a china or a tea rose is? I may come back and say I was wrong.

[Betty]

Isn't it up to the customer to know what they want to buy? I think chances are that the person who serves me in the garden section of a hardware store might know as much as the girls at two local ordinary plant nurseries do about roses. Not everyone has a rose nursery in their area, or rose experts to give them the right information or plants. I have not ordered roses yet but wrote to you, Deb, enquiring about the price of yours, and no answer. So, less stressful for me to just buy them locally.

[Guest]

Betty check your pms' I asked you email me and gave you my address (same day I got your PM).

Yes off course it is everyone choice, surely.
I don't think the local garden center will likely know a lot about roses, it would depend on who it is is. They likely would know a lot more than the clerk at a discount store however. Not all Rose Nurseries will know a lot about every roses they sell either, some times they buy in the roses to sell and have never grown them. But some nurseries will grow all the roses they sell and will know a good deal about all of them. As you say it your choice who you want to buy from, your choice as to who can help you the most on your selections, your choice who to trust so you avoid mistakes and your choice who can lead you to the right rose to try out. I trust the nursery where they grow their own roses, where it is their life's passion and where they have a large selection of of roses which interest me.

I do not know how all general garden centers operate but I do know how one operates. Roses are brought in to them from a supplier about every 2-4 weeks, they do not choose them the supplier does. They bring roses in full bloom only, usually PDR's that have been advertized in garden mags recently. They are placed in a prime viewing area near the check out or entry, hopeing for an impulse buy. If the roses go past peak bloom they are taken to the back of the nursery, where they are pruned and fertalized. With luck they look good again in 5-6 weeks and are returned to the prime viewing area. If they still fail to sell with the second bloom they are then put in the section of potted roses and given general care, hoping a person will come in looking for that paticular rose and buy it. After 6-12 months they are pot bound and thrown out. BTW this applies to most of the plants they sell. When the crab apples are peak bloom, 6 arrive from the suppier, they put them right by the gait as you walk in and you can not help but stop and look at them, if they don't sell by the time the flowers are done they go in the general tree area waiting for someone to want them, after a period of time they are thrown out. This is pretty high class nursery, always good plants in peak condition. I can't get out with out buying something I had no idea I wanted last time it was one of the flower crabs!...LOL I am sure other nurseries operate differently.

[The Lazy Rosarian]

Cree, could list the site so all the members can see and they then might choose some of yours to buy.

[Guest]

Betty on checking my sent box I am not sure if the message I sent you went through or not. I know the first one did as you responded to it. At any rate I have sent another and not sure if it went through either. It is best to contact me by email which you can get off the web site link.

Roseman, I am not a nursery. I grow a few odd ball own root roses, mostly for myself, freinds, to swap for more odd ball roses and pass on the left overs to those who have been looking for an odd ball own roots. My recomendation is ....for people wanting to buy good roses to go rose nursery.

[Betty]

quote="cree"]Betty check your pms' I asked you email me and gave you my address (same day I got your PM).

As you say it your choice who you want to buy from, your choice as to who can help you the most on your selections, your choice who to trust so you avoid mistakes and your choice who can lead you to the right rose to try out. [quote]

There was no PM until I checked this time, Deb. And that is not what I said, above. I said isn't it up to the customer to know what they want to buy? The people who don't know maybe aren't the sort to frequent a rose forum surely? Just in the short time I've been looking at roses, photo's on the Net etc., I have this great looong list in my mind of the roses I want. So, I don't go into a hardware store expecting or wanting help from the very nice woman in the garden centre . I've seen your roses, told you there are some I'd like, and no doubt by the time I could afford them I'll have googled them, looked on HMF, talked the decision over with my sister, maybe even looked on other forums to see what's been said, if anything, about that rose. I know I would not find them at the hardware store btw. I am still guilty of impulse buying (aren't we all?) but as a woman I was born to shop. ROTFL At the end of a day of very mundane grocery shopping, it's nice to pop into a nursery and buy a 'cheer me up'. The excitement of having a new rose I like keeps me wide awake on my 30 mile trip home too.

[Guest]

Betty just a caution about HMF and some of the old roses, Teas I am mostly thinking of. Not all the roses under the name used in Australia are going to be the same rose you will find on HMF. For example if you look at Souvenir d'un Ami on HMF, you will not see the rose in the country sold under that name. The Australian Souv d'un Ami is not on HMF under any name (unless this has changed since the last time I looked). I got caught out on this a few times. So best to ask some one in OZ first on at least the tea roses to be sure you are learning about the same rose on HMF that you would find here under that name.
Often the sizes they list for tea roses are sometimes very under estimated for the sizes they will reach here, so another area it is best to ask an OZ person about.

[The Lazy Rosarian]

ENOUGH is ENOUGH, this thread has become an extension of the one THAT is closed. We are here to discuss roses not how they are purchased or sent. I feel we should all move on. A lot of members have looked, but did not participate as it was not what they are here for. Cree for the sake of a good forum can you give it a rest, I ask you please. Just give your knowledge, which is vast. It appears that you have an agenda on things that you do not agree on and will go to abnormal lengths to persuade people to your way of thinking. I/WE ( I hope I can speak for the members) have different thoughts on roses, that is why someone gave us individual minds so we can decide for ourselves. This message comes from my heart Deb, PLEASE move on to the subject which is roses, which is our common bond I believe, David.

[Guest]

Oh gees I have done it again!

Roseman I have to thank you, without you monitoring I really would get inot a mess.
I though it was a topic about roses. I honestly did not know that different ways roses were handled and shipped was offensive or not allowed. I appoliges to you Roseman and the entire forum for which you speak, for going so far off the topic of roses.

Can you however explain why rose handling and rose shipments methods is not rose related and a topic should not be discuss? Maybe then I can figure out what knowledge I should share, as you sugested.

Still looking for some top quality wine at a very lost price BTW.

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