Climbing Devoniensis... OMG!!!!

Can't believe how strong and fast She is growing!!! Only in the ground a month and already has 20cm long shoots.. temps still down around the 4°C mark at night... this one is going to be a beast! Going to try and grow it as a shrub too I am going to use this one in crosses this year for sure!

LOL Sounds like shades of 'Bridezilla'

I may keep that one on hold until I have a tree I want smothered.

What are you going to cross it with Simon.
Out of left field, what would happen if you crossed it with the bush form or vis versa

'Climbing Devoniensis' is a sport of the bush form.. .crossing it would be identical to doing a self pollination. I've been doing a few hybrid musk x tea crosses last season.. would be keen to try more of these using other teas like this one. I also got a seedling from 'Immensee' x 'M.Tillier' this season so Am keen to follow this path too. I've also just got chinensis 'minima' (aka 'Rouletii') and think I'd like to try going this way with this Tea as well... to make mini Teas. I would like ot put it on my seedling nick-named 'Babyflora' too.

Hi,
I have two bush Devoniensis - they are small. I think I made a misake with pruning them last year and they sulked. This year I left them alone.
Barbara B

The bush 'Devonensis' is one of the few Tea's that will fit into the average suburban garden. MY bush is 4 years old and is a comfortable 1200 high and has never been pruned. It is so healthy in contrast to the DA's growing near. Definately a rose everyone should have, looks great next to 'Don Juan'.

Its funny. Devenensis is probably the worst grower of out teas.

I have a couple (climbers and shrubs that were supposed to be climbers but clearly were not) from different sources but not all that good.

I am going to do some cuttings as it may be the rootstock that does not like our place.

The reports about Devoniensis on HMF all agree that it needs to be left alone to just grow and it can take a long time to establish to do this. Patricia Routley was talking in the order of 8 years. There are some magnificent old examples of Devoniensis shown on HMF. When I get home I will put up the link to my favourite one. The Climbing form, however, seems to be nothing like this and looks to be jumping out of the ground!

Simon can I humbly suggest that if you are going to try and grow Clg Devoniensis as a shrub that you invest in a good quality chainsaw or get the number of a tree lopper.

I grew it for years and it is gargantuan - though beautiful and charming - and as thorny as a blackberry patch.

My well meaning family cut mine down whilst I was in hospital for an extended period with peritonitis and I haven't replanted it - yet.

Here are a couple of pics of my former plant to show how he grows. BTW the bush form is a weak beast and not worth garden real estate.

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Larry, it's just beautiful!

Chainsaw
Plenty of Room

Do you recall if your plant ever set hips?

Simon wrote:'Climbing Devoniensis' is a sport of the bush form.. .crossing it would be identical to doing a self pollination.

The question to your answer Simon is if you place bush on Clb, why would you not get bush, and vis versa, Clb on bush, outcome clb possible
I will gladly where this if it is not possible.

Dave, the answer to this is more complicated than you might want

Short version... sometimes the changes that occur in a sport are inheritable... most times they are not. When I look at breeding stock one of the first things I look for is whether it is a sport or not and if so I generally avoid it unless it has descendants that suggest the mutation is in fact inheritable.

Stop reading now if you don't want the long version

The long version is... plant tissue is divided into three 'layers' creatively called Layer 1 (L1), Layer 2 (L2), and Layer 3 (L3). Differet types of plant tissue are derived from different layers. Roots come from L3. Vegetative growth is derived from L1 and L3 whilst reproductive tissue is derived from L2. This is the middle layer. It is possible for a rose to have one genetic combination in L1 and a different one in, for instance, L2. These are called chimeras. Sporting occurs when the genetic material undergoes a change due to some error or interuption of the cell division process (and DNA replication) and results in the changes we see as a sport. For a sport to be inheritable it must have occured in L2.

So, a climbing sport results in some changes in L1 and IF the change also occurs in L2 then it will be inheritable. This is not often the case and so any flowers that form on the stems of climbing sports contain pollen that is identical to the non-climbing version. That is, they don't breed like climbers and don't contain climbing genes n the pollen.

It often isn't as simple as this! Buds aint buds. When the stem forms buds called axial buds form at the junction of each leaf with the stem. When the bud on the end of the stem, called the terminal bud is removed through pruning, herbivory, or injury/disease etc then growth in these axial buds is initiated and a new stem grows. There are other buds that lie 'dormant' around the edges of the axial buds that can be triggered if the axial buds are somehow removed. This is why when you are grafting onto a standard stem you need to scoop out the buds along its length to try and get as many of these secondary axial buds as possible.

When the secondary axial buds are triggered into growing, cell division occurs within them at a rapid rate to allow the stem to grow. It has been shown (in coleus plants I think it was) that when a mutation occurs in either L1 or L3 in a secondary axial bud then there can be some exchange of DNA between the layers and some of the mutated DNA can wind up in L2. If this occurs the sported genes will become inheritable and there are plenty of cases where climbing sports have occured that appear to pass on the trait to their seedlings. Stripes may have occured in this way too, though there is some evidence to suggest that stripes may also be of viral origin. There are, however, many examples of striped roses sporting from a non-striped rose that cannot pass on the striping to its seedlings.

So... that's about it. 'Climbing Devoniensis' does not have any listed descendants on HMF so I don't know how it breeds. It may pass on climbing and it may not. Given it is a sport of a non-climbing rose there is an above average chance it won't be able to pass climbing on. What it may pass on is the predisposition to sporting which may result in climbing progeny from subsequent non-climbing descendants.

Trawling through the mists of memory now Simon but can't say I remember any hips on the climbing form of Devoniensis. The bush form though a very weak plant seemed to produce a couple of anaemic looking hips before I yanked it out.
Whether it is possible for a clg sport of a hip bearing bush to be sterile I dunno.
It may just be that the clg form was so contionuously floriferous that I didn't notice the hips. I was continuously pruning the bugger before it swallowed the house I may have been removing the dead flowers before hips could form.
Jeez I'm getting lost in a myriad of reproductive possibilities here - the only real test is for you to give it a shot and see what happens.
Best of luck

Larry

A side track for a minute, Simon, if all the parents to a rose are diploid and decendants, what are the chance of it producing more diploids, the sports of this rose I assume they also would be diploid. Which ploidy does one place over it.

Simon, I'm reading and learning, keep up the technical information however how long it takes you. I'm very interested.

This rose has the potential to produce something really great if put on the right rose.

roseman wrote:A side track for a minute, Simon, if all the parents to a rose are diploid and decendants, what are the chance of it producing more diploids, the sports of this rose I assume they also would be diploid. Which ploidy does one place over it.

diploid x diploid = diploid
diploid x tetraploid = triploid
diploid x triploid = diploid or triploid
triploid x tetraploid = triploid or tetraploid

Triploids often have reduced fertility. Some so much so they are sterile. Some, like 'Bonica' seem very fertile.

I'm going to use Devonensis Bush. Nice slow grower and possibly one of the only Tea's suitable for a smaller garden. Mine is as high as the fence around 1200mm high and I really like it.

I hear the climber eats 80 square two story houses. Simon, how many acres do you have, might not have room for it.

Plenty enough for it to do it's thing It's gotta make it past the rabbits first

I miss my clg Devoniensis and may try and find room for it in my new garden.