Variations out of the same cross

When pollinating a plant , you think most of the offspring would have similar characteristics (Bloom shape, colour, foliage, scent or growth habits). Here are two crosses (Charles Austin X Arjuna) and (Charles Austin X Scentimental) , both produced such a variation in the offspring, the Scentimental cross, I was after a variegated form of a D Austin type. What I got , was the right colours but on different bushes.

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This Charles Austin X Arjuna growth and foliage habits were similar , with a variation in colour and petal texture.

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Warren, any thoughts on what does this, I can see it happening in open pollination, but, what about in controlled environs.

Dave its called genetic variation, it happens in human families where the siblings all look different. Eg. My older brother and I have black hair, brown eyes and dark complexion, when I was young , I had blonde hair which went black when reaching late teens, my younger brother was white blonde,fair complexion, brown eyes and now has mousey brown hair. My younger sister has black hair, milky white complexion and blue eyes.

Allthough we, like roses have the same seed parent and pollinator, traites from previous generations can be expressed .

With the white Charles Austin X Scentimental , those wavy petals and open bloom structure are traites comming from Playboy.

When researching crosses for spring, what I look for are traites which are dominate in F1 crosses, be it structure , colour, vigour ,foliage and disease resistance. Every thing is planned around these factors which has taken months of research.

Years ago I used a rose called Wendy, its dominate traite was large numbers of blooms per flowering cane and an awesome repeat. When crossed with an other rose every thing was over ridden by the pollinator except the above traite.
Back in 2005 I did a Wendy X Abraham Darby , out of that one cross and one hip , there was 17 different variations , some went on to be registered, others were shovelled. In the same year I crossed Wendy X Altissimo and got 10 variations.

If a (Wendy X ?) x (WendyX ?) it is disasterous.

If a (Wendy X ?) x (WendyX ?) it is disasterous
In this disasterous possible cross, what might the ? mark be for example.
If you put in a rose hypothetically, can you name something simple and I or anyone that might be interested can look back at the family tree to see what some of the traites (could) be.
Warren I do not breed as like a lot of our members, but it interests me, I guess it is like being Inspector Clusoua.
If I get off my bum I will try some.

One year I accidently pollinated a Wendy X Altissimo with Wendy, as I do not use names but number codes I probably got distracted,pollinated and left it at that untill the seedling were germinating. When they flowered, although they produced masses of flowers the structure was really horrible and the size had reduced down to more than a half of the original parents. I kept it for 1 1/2 yrs but then decided to shovell it.

One of the siblings of Bamako, Glimpse and Colour Buffet all which were Wendy X Abraham Darby , it produced a flower spray , similar looking to Cecile Brunner and produced 180 buff pink blooms per cane. They were very tiny 1" in diametre , but again it was shovelled.

Hypothetically speaking again, if next spring I took the first 2 flowers from 'Bonica' , let it set hips(no bee contact) took the best looing flower from each and crossed them, then took the best one from there and then crossed the result with it's self (self x self), is it possible I would get something similar or would it go back to the dominate traite from 'Bonica'.
I know I am pushing the envelope a bit, but find this interesting in it's own right, get the old "grey" matter thinking.
Is there any reason why I can't take all the 'Bonica' hips that are on it now and start the seed harvest.

Howdy Dave, You would possibly get some thing looking like Bonica, The thing about crossing anything with its self is, if there are any nasty things lying hidden ( disease proneness ect) this would be bought out.Bonica is hit by BS, by doing this you would be encouraging this weakness to be expressed genetically.

The aim of any breeding programme be it for plants or animals , is to improve on what you already have, breeding back on its self is always a path people go down when looking for a specific traite but there is aleays a price to pay at the end of that road. If you want healthy ,strong and interesting offspring, breeding away from the norm will give you greater genetic diversity.

Warren, If it is ok with you can I and anyone else that wants to have a go at breeding or thinking of it start it here. This chase is going to be computer based to start with if that is ok. What I/we need is a plant to start. I would like an older style rose at the finish which is recurrent. Yellow is my interest at present, but I understand it is hard, so can we go for a really good cream/white.
Do I/we look for pollen or seed parent first ?
I assume I/we go back through it's family tree.

The other thing from my point of view is that the outcome not be HT or Flori.
Am I asking to much on this subject Warren.
If you give me the start I will be the gopher and chase it
This is hypothecical at present time, it may come to fruision one day

Go for it Dave, It is wonderful to see the first bud forming and the wait everytime to see.
Brindabella Bouquet is good for disease res, crossing it with maybe Wendy to try for your yellow Dave.
I have been crossing a couple of yellow DA in my Mum's garden I will see what that brings. I love a bright yellow rose, unlike alot I dont mind if it fades after a couple of days being intense yellow.

Dave, do you have Charles Austin in your garden? and what yellow roses do you have either HT's or Floribunda's . Charles Austin will give you that old rose world look, using HT andFloribunda will pull the bloom up a little, retaining that old looking style. Using yellow on CA will give you a few of that colour

Make a list of the yellow's you have and I will have a look.

Warren I think I have it, Charles Austin. Lets start fresh with this one that I do have and could be a good start.
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I know it is not yellow, but we have to start somewhere, one of Uncle Dave Austin's first, Constance Spry. Do we make it seed or pollen parent, maybe both. Could 'gold medal' go with it.
I think I need to go back and track all the family tree of CS, then start from that point, is that how it is done.

Dave you could go both ways with CS, but I would'nt put Gold medal with it, but I would put Gold Medal with Charles Austin though.

Thanks Warren for your help. I think what I need to do is go and list the roses that I have and then start from there, does that make more sense.
I have just a , can Rosa banksiae var. banksiae be used.

Dave its a bit hard if i dont know what you have over there. Rosa Banksiae , I have not done any work with but I think, gathering what Information I have seen from the USA it is'nt an easy one to work with.

next, how about 'Crown Princess Margaritte