Rose nomenclature - Split from Rose Breeders Database

I have a series of questions that I will ask one at a time to try to make some points that you all may find interesting
The first one is how many people out there recognise the Rose Variety MEIVIOLIN.............(.Without looking up your reference books)

Not this little black duck, unless it's .... (stone the crows, it was!). I don't think of roses by their hieroglyphic names, and I go frothy at the mouth when breeders re-use names (all the big firms are doing it), and when a new rose is gven multiple names.

I will presume that very few people will recognise MEIVIOLIN...so i will move on
How many people know of a variety called PIERRE DE RONSARD?

Quite a few I would imagine.
Grows beautifully on it's own roots too.

About 3 years ago , I happened to be in town on a Sunday morning early and it just happened to be the one Sunday in the month that the market was held at the old railway goods shed . I'd never been before so I moseyed on in for a stickybeak.
Me being me , I was more interested in the plants than the preserves , so that was what I wandered over to look at.
A couple of stalls with the usual bits of geranium and agapanthus and gazanias , begonias , daisies ..... just about anything that can be easily struck , evening primrose .....
then at the last stall I spied these pots that had pieces of roses growing in them. Ah Ha.
The stall holders were 2 asian ladies and sensing they had a potential customer , they homed in. Nothing over five dollar they kept repeating as they followed me around .
I pulled out 4 pots that had cuttings of Softee growing [and flowering] , I already had this and it's pretty easily recognisable , one pot that had a sort of muted vermillion floribunda in it. I thought I recognised that , I've got no idea of what it's name is but there's beds of it growing up in the council rosegarden up on the highway and one pot that had a HT looking plant in it , a bit spindly , about 60cm tall . It was covered in some new growth and buds , nice healthy green with plummy points , but an unknown.
This is where it got funny , because with each of the pots that I picked up , the ladies nodded their heads and said "Is Iceberg , is very good rose ." I said I don't think so , that Iceberg looks very different , even when it's not flowering but I didn't get through to them . They just kept smiling and telling me that they were all called Iceberg and they are very good roses .
So I handed over $2 ea for the Softee's and the vermillion one and $5 for the other . What the heck , I actually don't mind Iceberg , but not with those plummy tips it wasn't one.
I planted it out and I think it produced one flower but the kids snapped it off before it was properly open , but I could see that it was pink and it had a fat round bud . It grew modestly for a couple of months and then up shot these watershoots [so I thought] that actually became arching canes . I hadn't planted it as a climber , so there is nothing to support it and it continues to arch. Then along the canes I see what I guessed were flowering spurs and they in time produced more of these fat buds , which....
when it flowered is a deadringer for PdR . Even if it is called Iceberg.[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] What the heck ; this is Collie. Anything is possible .

cheers. Rosalie

Jeff, how about giving members a bit more time to answer as it was 10.30 when you asked.

Pierre de Ronsard is very common in SA because it was promoted by one of the TV gardening programs, and so has become nearly as cliched as double rows of standards of white Iceberg or Seduction. Which is not to say they aren't very good roses, but I don't want to see them everywhere.

Gee... first time I go to bed before 10pm in ages (am home crook now... around too many unhealthy kids) and this starts up...

Welcome Jeff, how about a short introduction in the Say Hello forum?

I don't know what the issue is? Meiviolin should be written as MEIviolin to emphasise that it is made up of the breeder's code (Meilland's breeder code is MEI... mine is VOO), and the breeder's code name for the variety which combined is meant to look like a real word. This is standard practice for breeders to make separate registration and marketing names for their roses. The logic behind this is that it allows the distributor to have different marketing names for different countries whilst still having the registered name for positive identification across the world, as is the case with PDR. I know that PDR is the same as 'Eden Climber' for example. The registration name is also a non-market friendly name so that people will not sell it under that name (with the trademarked name being protected to some extent from illegal use... it's actually a bit of a grey area for me and one of the areas the plant-world needs to fix. Theoretically you can't have a trade mark that is the same as the name of a product as this actually invalidates the trade mark. So the use of trade marks as names for roses is something that should not be done if one wants any level of protection over their new creations). No-one would buy a rose labelled as 'MEIviolin'. I like to think of it as similar to the scientific naming system whereby every living thing is given a binomial name; the scientific name. It can then still be referred to by its common name. I see the registration name as being for classification purposes. My first rose registration is 'VOOtutu'. That's her 'scientific name'. Her common name is 'Rose Tutu'.

On another note, I think this discussion needs to be given its own thread. It is likely to get lost here tacked on the end of this thread as it has no relevance to the original thread. I don't know if I can break it up and repost it but I will see what can do.

EDIT: carry on.. I worked out how to split it...

I now know where you are coming from Jeff. I quick whip around net reveals this is something of a crusade for you yes? To make people aware that roses (and 'Jazz' Apples), have a real, registered name, and a formerly associated marketting name such as the example you talk about online for AUSmas, aka 'Graham Thomas'.

You will find that the people on this forum are VERY rose savvy. If a rose exists under multiple synonyms they will mention the registered rose names along with the name it is being sold as. Many people here are involved in heritage rose work and as such are involved in untangling many of the issues surrounding the true identity of a rose. You will also find that most people here are avid users of HMF and when looking for various roses by common name the registered name is also included and we go to great lengths to ensure this information is correct, for the ongoing correct identification of roses. I'm sure you are aware of HMF, however, and know what I'm talking about

One of the things I hate is the reuse of names and the tricks used to mislead people. For example Treloars is selling a rose as 'New Iceberg'. It's a HT and is in no way related to the 1958 rose more commonly known as 'Iceberg' (KORbin). In fact Kordes is also marketting this rose O/S as 'Iceberg', just to confuse people (you can bet your ass that if Kordes lists a rose as being extinct it usually means that it still exists in people's backyards but that they want to re-use the name... or am I being too cynical here ). A quick look at the regsitered name (KORturek) will quickly reveal it is not the rose we all know and love as 'Iceberg' but most people would not know this. I applaud Treloars for at least changing the name a bit to inform people that they are not the same thing. Kordes seem to recycle names a lot more than do most breeders/producers.

One other thing, these other names by which roses are known are also official registered names. When you register a rose with tICRA-R you must select a name that includes your breeder code (which as I mentioned above is VOO for me) and then add a suffix so that the registered name loosely resembles a real word. Then you must also list all the synonyms under which this rose will be known and the country in which it will be known by each synonym. These are included on the registration document when the rose registration is approved. This process, by the way, has nothing to do with IPAustralia until the breeder/distributor decides to market the rose in Australia and apply for a PBR or a trade mark. Trade marks are a different thing altogether and most people should spend more time going through the IPAustralia website to understand more fully the process of applying for a trade mark. It's not meant to be a cheaper alternative to a PBR yet most people regard it as such and unknowingly render their trade mark invalid in the process. (note for others reading this... I have discussed this on here in the past here: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] if you are interested reading more about this). It is also allowable, by tICRA-R, that roses in different classes, may share the same name. A quick search of HMF will reveal that several roses are called 'Iceberg', however, one is listed a floribunda, one a HT, and the other a Polyantha.

I appreciate, and agree with you, that the correct registered name should be the ultimate source of identity, however, I am not going to make it policy here that market names be accompanied by their registered epithet for the sake of pedantry, even when there are roses that share names or have multiple names. We are all very familiar with these roses making the chance of misunderstanding... slim and we will also generally include some kind of explanation when different roses are known by the same name or a link to HMF where more information can be found

Jezz this is getting too technical for me!

Sorry for the late reply...because of the shift of the thread i didnt get notification on my computer that there had been any replies???
Thank you for your replies.....I havent read them slowly yet but hopefully I will gain a lot from your perspectives.Also I hope you will find my perspectives interesting as well.
more to follow soon....its nearly midnight and I only just discovered these replies

I will contact Simon by email about some technical issues
In the meantime Im going to disappoint you guys by saying that none of you picked up on the fact that there is no such variety as Pierre de Ronsard.....it is a trademark and not the identity of the plant at all
So like most Australians you identify the plant as Pierre de Ronsard (this is not a criticism because most everyone does) Simon above says that the correct registered name is the ultimate source of identity....however he says that he is not going to make it policy here that the Market Name is accompanied by the registered epithet (variety)
I have a problem with the term Market Name.....sounds like the name of what ? in the market place......can anyone answer this?
My next question is ......would any of you out there think that you are allowed to propagate and sell the plant that you know as Pierre de Ronsard?

Thank God mine is called Iceberg .

jeff koelewyn wrote:........
My next question is ......would any of you out there think that you are allowed to propagate and sell the plant that you know as Pierre de Ronsard?

Aussies, Jeff
don't estimate a long story, my postings are always a liitle bit shorter than Simon's.
Regarding the German rights I would believe that the protection has ended after 25 years. So I would go.......but would sell it under the 'botanical' name.
the rules in OZ

cheers
Bernhard

Jeff, how long before you get off your and talk about some roses in general. Simon has posted on 2 threads that yes, we as a forum understand the "marketing" of roses. I for one would appreciate if you spoke of roses and not so much your gripe about the "technical" issues you have as this could be off putting to members that would like to talk "roses". in other words have a nice day, If I get into trouble for my comments , so be it, lighten up a bit Jeff.

Thanks for your reply Bemo
The website for Corporate Roses lists the Plant you guys know as Pierre de Ronsard as a PROTECTED plant with a PATENT
Also the label for this plant refers to Australian Patent no 618256
Knowing this are any of you out there prepared to propagate and sell this plant and swap it with each other?
Roseman above has stated that "we as a forum understand the marketing of roses" .....my question should be easy to answer then
when I get a response to this I will get to the crux of the matter
Thanks to all but Roseman for your patience

There is a link in the links section to IP Australia whereby people can search both trade marks and approved PBR. It is also policy here thta no PBR protected plants can be sold or trade marks used illegally. In the classifieds section terms of use we stipulate that people must search above mentioned databases to determine the status of the rose they want to sell/trade. It is true that Pierre de Ronsard has no current PBR status and it is also true that the name is a registered trade mark. This means you can sell it but not under the name PDR. The fact that the name PDR is also the tICRA-R registered official synonym for the rose MEIviolin means the trademark is irrelevant, however, I would not like to test this legally. I'm sure I could but I would not want to test it personally. Personally I grow this rose (from cuttings.. grows very well on its own roots and strikes easily) and distribute it freely to people who want it... I was aware that no PBR existed because David and I made gthe classifieds policy here and I practice what I preach. I guess we go to a lot of trouble here to provide people with the tools to investigate these things and in the end if people do not want to use them then so-be-it. Others make frequent use of it and are better informed. I like it that way... each to their own

There is some confusion here
The protection claimed here is not PBR .....It is plant patent protection which is totally different from PBR
Most people are unaware that this form of protection existed in Oz well before the advent of PBR
MEIviolin was given plant patent protection well before the advent of PBR
i quote from the back of the current label VAR MEIviolin Aust Patent No 618256
A valid plant patent would make any propagation ,sale or swapping of this plant illegal

Also PDR cannot be a synonym for the rose variety MEIviolin
Synonymous means also known as (synonyms in the PBR journal are alternate variety names not trademarks) In simple terms a trademark cannot be a synonym for a variety.....this is a clear admission that the trademark has become generic

PDR is a synonym for MEIviolin as far as tICRA-R are concerned. Seeing as they are the international body administering the registration of rose varieties throughout the world these guys get dibs over IP or PBR registering bodies.

There are links to patent searches there as well, however, it should be noted that the patent expired on PDR back in 2008 and so it is now no longer covered by any kind of patent at all. View the expired patent application here: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Jeff, apart for some sort of axe to grind. Simon has answerd "your" thing well, and I reckon in word for word and legality for legality he would s**t on you. Again Simon will rouse on me, for my wording but so what. Jeff you have got me on my high horse. You can post your questions to me not the forum and yes it might take some hours but I will give you the end answer by the defination of law at present.
My email is . [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
In very polite terms, let us talk about roses not YOUR fetish

woah..... chillax..... this is a useful topic when applied in a context that is useful to us. Let's not lose sight of this. None of us really sell roses (cept Bruce... I really wish I could buy his roses...) and this issue is neither here nor there for most of us... Let's look at what's useful so far... I wasn't aware that there may be a third option of protecting intellectual property other than PBR or trade marking... the straight out patent, I thought, was superceded by the PBR but a quick search at the above address reveals that a few Aussie rose breeders use it... like George Thomson. That's useful... and I'm going to try and find out more about it. So David, don't forget that this is not our way... not into pissing competitions... Goes for you too Jeff.... this is not our way... I don't like pissing competitions....

.... Pissing competitions ? Surelye not gentlemen. I thought that was something my 5 yr old did with his mates.
Mind you I was wondering if it was going to be secateurs drawn at 30 paces though .

Interesting subject though even if it does start to make my brain feel like it's tripping over it's own knots. I suspect that if it wasn't poor Pierre that was the shuttlecock , there would be another waiting in the wings.

Is it made trickier with roses because there are so many .... some with .... some without ? .I'm at a loss to know just what to call them ; patents , trademarks , registrations ....
I was starting to get confused last night with how one was supposed to refer to a rose.
If someone points out to a red rose in my garden and says "what's the name of that one there ?" I can say that's a variety[?] of Hybrid Tea called Mister Lincoln , but if they point to my pink and white one I can't say that's a variety of shrub climber called Pierre de Ronsard [well it's not , it's called Iceberg actually ....] well what do you say ? " That's a shrub climber trademarked Pierre de Ronsard ? "

Roses and patents , wasn't that what Francis Meilland was fighting the cause for all those years ago ?

I love my roses . I just didn't know I needed a law degree to be able to grow them.

cheers. Rosalie

loved your post Ozrose
Just go straight ahead and call your plants by the name you know them by.........this is inevitable and logical and supports my argument

Simon wrote:..... I don't like pissing competitions....

it depends on the event: scattered, long, freestyle or firefighting

Jeff, keep the information flowing, it's something all propagators and breeders should know more about.

I would not propagate Pierre de Ronsard or Red Pierre for I believe they are PBR however you state it is Patented #618256. Correct me if I am wrong but this suggests only the name is patented and not the rose which can be propagated and sold under another name.

Sorry David (Roseman) I can't agree with you, I want to know more.

a breakthrough .....thank you Ozeboy
If my information enables just one person to propagate and grow and sell a particular Rose that they thought was protected I am very happy that I am not wasting my time
At this point you can propagate and sell the cultivar MEIviolin......just be carefull to not use the Trademark Pierre de Ronsard
As for the plant you recognise by its Trademark Red Pierre you CANT touch this one until it runs out of PBR protection in about 20 years

The Australian Patent 618256 protected the cultivar MEIviolin for the 20 years from 1988 to 2008

The registered trademark used for MEIviolin is Pierre de Ronsard which is still valid (but I believe it could be challenged because of its generic usage)

And YES there is nothing to stop you giving your own cultivar name to the cultivar MEIviolin....I would prefer any plant to have just one cultivar name but there is nothing to stop you
Also there is nothing to stop you from using your own trademark (registered or not registered ) for the cultivar MEIviolin

I have a suggestion for a great Trademark that your organisation can use to market MEIviolin (I will keep it secret and tell Simon to avoid pirating)

Thanks again Ozeboy for getting the ball rolling

Some more food for thought.....how many of you out there realise that many of the so called Delbard Roses are not protected and can be propagated ,grown and sold without any problems
Just be VERY CAREFULL to not use the name DELBARD or any of the trademarks that these roses are sold under
For example there is a Rose many of you would know by its trademark FRANCE LIBRE
I would guess that all of you dont know the actual cultivar name which is Deljaunor