Some of your thoughts please

I googled Perth area at lunch time today. What a lovely and lively place to live in ..  One link says the maximum temperature that was recorded in Perth between 1900 and today was 45 degree celsious (dc)...Today in Perth is the temperature is around 20 dc....to me this is still a warm weather though... Our end of Autumn begininning of Winter is around 10 to 15 dc. for us it is always safe to move the plants....

Alya wrote'
Once I was mad enough to spend almost 7 hours in December - the mid of the winter for us  - to move a 45 years old rose. But it worked.  What was it's name Alya and why did it need moving ?

Paul, if you "feel inclined" to move them to the front of the proposed new width how much would you gain, that's the first question. 
Second, have you got the "inclination".
Third, if you were to prune in the method I am thinking and proposed, how much would you gain with thoughts to Question one, this might be a ongoing Summer job, it might even take two years to achieve the desired effect.

neptune wrote:

paulh wrote:Here is a map of Perth metro area, disregard the red triangle, hope this helps David. Not exactly sure where John lives.

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And I live bottom left

What are the two suburbs names ?

The Lazy Rosarian wrote:Alya wrote'
Once I was mad enough to spend almost 7 hours in December - the mid of the winter for us  - to move a 45 years old rose. But it worked. What was it's name Alya and why did it need moving ?

It was The Queen Elizabeth Rose. The rose came with my first one bedroom end of terrace house I bought 17 years ago. The garden was twice the size of the house itself. The rose was at the far end corner of the garden adjacent to a big and wide conifer hedge.  In order to see the rose you had to go outside next to it. I wanted to be able to see the rose from everywhere in the house. So I decided to move it. about 6 months later come summer the rose put a beautiful display of flowers.

Just few months ago, in November 2014, I moved my 10 years old Rosa La De Hay. I pruned the rose from 2 meters height down to 40cm above the ground because I wanted it be bushier. Chasing the whole roots was not possible so I cut the roots as well. But made sure the length of the root is not shorter than the height of the plant above the ground.  Now the rose is just carrying on as if it has never been moved. Tomorrow I shall take its picture and show you guys.

David, moving them forward would take them about 1/2 away from the fence, ccurrently they are up against the fence. With some, the trunk at the base is only about 20cm from the fence

The Lazy Rosarian wrote:

neptune wrote:

paulh wrote:Here is a map of Perth metro area, disregard the red triangle, hope this helps David. Not exactly sure where John lives.

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And I live bottom left

What are the two suburbs names ?

Mandurah here...

Jindalee here

paulh wrote:David,  moving them forward would take them about 1/2 away from the fence, ccurrently they are up against the fence.  With some, the trunk at the base is only about 20cm from the fence

Paul, if you did your new edge, how far would it be from the the fence,  if you did move the plants, what distance could be achieved if they were positioned close to the new edge. This bed we are talking about is the one we saw early in your posts/threads about drainage is it not, the one with a limestone bottom, if this is it, can you remember if the the ledge comes out as far as the the new edge might be ?. I am thinking you will achieve better drainage with this as well and maybe, just maybe the roots will infiltrate deeper into your soils.

Correct on all accounts David, doing a dummy run yesterday moving a few papers, I realised It don't gain as much ground as It was hoping. However your point on drainage is an important one to consider. Moving them on this point is one to consider, even though It would be only gaining only 40cm.

Alya wrote:...

Just few months ago, in November 2014, I moved my 10 years old Rosa La De Hay. I pruned the rose from 2 meters height down to 40cm above the ground because I wanted it be bushier. Chasing the whole roots was not possible so I cut the roots as well. But made sure the length of the root is not shorter than the height of the plant above the ground.  Now the rose is just carrying on as if it has never been moved. Tomorrow I shall take its picture and show you guys.

Here comes the pics:

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and

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and whe I turn my back to the Rosa La DeHay ..welcome to my back garden...looks like a jungle..lots of work digging cementing and planting to do....

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I wonder what is the name of the roses you are thinking of moving?

Nice photos Alla, the roses I'm thinking of moving forward; Perfume Delight, Honey D'jon, Arianna, Double Delight, Sceptre D'Isle, Black Beauty, Holman's Gold, Pope John Paul, Reconciliation, Peace, Blue Moon.

paulh wrote:.... the roses I'm thinking of moving forward; Perfume Delight, Honey D'jon, Arianna, Double Delight, Sceptre D'Isle, Black Beauty, Holman's Gold, Pope John Paul, Reconciliation, Peace, Blue Moon.

Very good selection indeed!

The helpmefind web site says “..In warmer climates, cut back the remaining canes by about one-third. In colder areas, you'll probably find you'll have to prune a little more than that. ..”. The reason you never guys and girls prune more than that and I can get away with it.

Perhaps move the taller and wider roses to somewhere and plant more skinny and compact ones in place. Or vice versa….

Is this the only place you have got for your roses?

I guess the soil you have is more loamy sandy type and my soil is heavy clay.. In the summer both are pain indeed...

I suppose as long as you make sure you move them during the coldest time of the year your roses could do just fine regardless the rootstock they are on.

I have Double Delight. Blue Moon climber, Peace both the Meilland and W. Piper versions. They all got their share of moving their roots twice in two years.

Also when planting I have always buried the graft at least 1.5 inch deep to prevent the graft from drying out in the heat or cold. My guess is the suckers are only problem depending on the type of the rootstock the rose on.

Alla, I live in a small dwelling so I don't have much yard space. All my other roses are in pots because It have no other room for a garden bed. As far as the graft, I have always had them above ground, however I have wondered about that method.

paulh wrote:Alla,  I live in a small dwelling so I don't have much yard space. All my other roses are in pots because It have no other room for a garden bed. As far as the graft,  I have always had them above ground, however I have wondered about that method.

I fully understand you Paul. You have got to make use of the space you have... And I agree with you If  I was to pay so much for a fence I would do my best not to even let a bird land on and the thorny plants..

I suppose what Dave says is more helpful to you. When you have done it would you mind letting us know how you did it..the stages would be nice too..'cose i want to pack as many roses  I can to my garden and it looks like your experience is the one to follow

I find it very tiring to look after the roses in pots.

The preparation of the hole is very important to me..if the hole is too dry I fill the hole with water..wait to drain then get on with planting. I recycle banana skins cofee egg shells moss even dry ones and dry Oak leaves.. mix them with the chalky and peat soil together in the big and deep hole bone meal or Fungi  - use either but never together - and tuck the roots into the hole making sure there are no lumps and rocks and stones putting more soil onto the roots and water in stages as I put more soil into hole then once finished pour  lots of water to the surface tickling the soil with hand fork  wait the water to drain then water-n-tickle again...whe the water can't be absorbed any more and runs away the surface then I walk away.

I am not sure if every one does the same ...Here I get lots eye brows raised for doing so...

I must admit it takes me about 20 minutes to plant one rose. But the outcome is rewarding...

How do you plant your roses?

Thanks for your info Alya, if you would like you could go to my website, under the link (planting) you'll find my method.
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Ayla, this is the thing about this forum, we ALL get a say,  it is my belief that the more people contribute you have lots of options, my little bit, your little bit, anyone's little bit might just be what is wanted, it might even start a another line of thought with a totally different outcome which can be better than the original concept.

I think it's usually advised to plant roses with the graft above the ground in Perth due to the presence of nematodes in the Perth soils. Roses for the WA market are usually grafted onto a rootstock that is resistant to nematodes, which is why you don't want the plant to form it's own roots (which is what sometimes happens if you bury the graft), since they're most likely not resistant to nematodes.

Since you don't experience hard freezes or snow cover in Perth, there's no danger of the graft freezing. So I think it's a good idea to plant with the graft above ground there.

muscovyduckling wrote:I think it's usually advised to plant roses with the graft above the ground in Perth due to the presence of nematodes in the Perth soils. Roses for the WA market are usually grafted onto a rootstock that is resistant to nematodes, which is why you don't want the plant to form it's own roots (which is what sometimes happens if you bury the graft), since they're most likely not resistant to nematodes.

....

Am I doing enough to take care of the soil by doing  companion planting? Please tell me what you think.

I plant marigold Brassica wild garlic wild lupin and so on arund the roses.
green Manure crops helps clean up to soil and can control nematodes.

when the brassica is big enough I just cut pull it off the ground and then re bury it upside down. i do this witht he wild lupin too. When  am lazy I cut the brassica and leave it to rot on the ground.

My French marigolds have been reseeding themselves  all around. I let them grow. They have lovely flowers. Also I planted quite a lot of alliums wild alliums. Also I have the habit of planting onions and garlics all around the roses and hostas.

I prepare  very hot powder chilli pepper, onion and garlic ginger then boil all about 15 minutes. Let it cool a bit then pour it onto the lilies roses and any plant that has some insect on its leaves. the chillipepper will go into the gorund and make the life hell for and eventually kill the buggers.  

Also few years ago I introduced Pyrethum/Tanacetum from seeds. I noticed that where pyrethum grows there is no other weed or insect or problem... And it is  a lovely looking plant:

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Alya, your garden is magnificent so just keep doing whatever it is you're doing, as it seems to be working! Are those purple poppies? I've never seen anything like those before.

I don't know what your soil is like over there or if nematodes are a problem for you. Do you know what rootstocks your roses are commonly grafted onto? They generally use Fortuniana in Perth as it's the most resistant apparently. 

If nematodes are an issue, there are a bunch of cover crops you can plant that release a gas that will repel nematodes when you dig them into the soil at the end of the season. These are called 'bio-fumigants' and include brassicas, mustard greens, cowpea, marigolds, canola, and a whole bunch of others. If you google 'bio-fumigant  plants' or something similar I'm sure there will be heaps of information out there about them! Sounds like you're already using heaps of these in your plantings anyway

They're also a good crop to plant in your vege garden between plantings of solanaceae crops (eg. Tomatoes and potatoes) to break the cycle of diseases that affect plants of that family. 

Pyrethrum is a cool plant, isn't it! It doesn't want to grow for me here  but it's a seriously powerful insect repellant that makes up the active ingredient in many of the dips and powders that are used to treat external parasites (like lice and mites) in poultry. If only I could grow my own!

For above-ground insect control, the umbelliferae group are your best pals. Things like cow parsley/Queen Anne's lace, angelica, fennel, carrot and celery flowers - anything with a flower that looks like an umbrella - attract insects like ladybugs and predatory wasps that will enjoy dining on aphids and other pests. They look so airy and romantic too  ETA: this will only work if you don't spray your garden at all. If you spray, you'll kill the good bugs along with the bad bugs anyway, so there's no point trying to attract them.

I think planting cover crops and green manures is an excellent thing to do for your soil regardless, to build fertility, increase organic matter, and suppress weeds.

At the moment, I'm afraid I have a cover crop of weeds. Hahahahaha.

paulh wrote:Correct on all accounts David, doing a dummy run yesterday moving a few papers, I realised It don't gain as much ground as It was hoping. However your point on drainage is an important one to consider. Moving them on this point is one to consider, even though It would be only gaining only 40cm.

Paul, is drainage an issue for you there? I seem to remember the coastal soils in WA as being very sandy and free-draining...? I think I am missing something here....

Zoe, many moons ago when Paul first stated to post here we had shots of the fence and what it was built on. Paul might have the shots still, it is a ridge of Limestone, so I guess the bed is in a long bucket.

Yes, i will try and see if I've got some photos to explain my garden bed situation

Oh yeah, that raised bed out the front of your place along the property boundary? I remember the conversation about that. Yes, I guess on limestone bedrock it would be like a giant bucket

I have no suggestions to help this unless you're willing to completely excavate the bed first, I'm afraid.

But in terms of leggy roses, isn't that just how HTs grow? They always look like that around here. I keep driving past this stunning rose, I think it might be Elina, but the bush is about 8 feet tall and looks kinda crazy. Would it be ridiculous of me to suggest just planting some sweet peas and trailing nasturtiums beneath them to hide their naked legs?

Some previous photos on the subject of my garden bed and how I have had to overcome the concrete channel that runs the whole length of the retaining wall.
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