Dave.... something interesting I found re laevigata seeds/hips

After hearing you say that you don't have much luck with your laevigata crosses I thought I'd post this here that I found on the RHA forum tonight:

I've been watching my own R. laevigatas for three years. When they bloom, in earliest April, they do set o.p. hips, and the hips stay green through winter, and only by April of the following year do the hips turn reddish brown to deep brown and fall off.
The prickles on the hips are so sharp and the hips themselves SO HARD that the local rodents leave them alone unlike the other species' hips in the same garden. They do have seeds that may be viable. I'm trying to find a place away from where we walk to grow them out.

Seems they may take longer to ripen than most hips and that it might be worth pursuing it as a seed parent... maybe

Sorry, Simon, only just caught up with you here. I've never thought of using Laevigata as a seed parent, mainly because of its size:) I did use pollen this spring to cross it with Chaucer. See what happens. Thanks for the info - have to try it next year!

Did this cross work Dave?

No

When I get all the things together to send you Dave (when the various China seedlings are bigger - one is about to flower for the first time so stay tuned over the next couple of weeks ), I'll send you up a plant of "Temple Bells". I have a feeling it is compatible with laevigata as I pollinated it this season with 'Anemone' pollen and got multiple hips. I'll be repeating this cross again next season too. "Temple Bells' has Noisette in its background but looks like straight wichurana and if it accepts 'Anemone' pollen then I reckon there's a great chance it would take laevigata pollen. I have a few plants coming on so will send one or two up your way to play with. I'm hoping it will prove to be a fertile bridge to bring laevigata into the gene pool more. "Temple Bells' is extremely fertile.

Thanks Simon. Will look forward to the experiments! I often wonder why Laevigata hasn't been used more, because it is completely disease free here. I think it mildews in some places, but not here. I'll pollinate again this August.
BTW your 3 seedlings of bracteata x clynophylla are thriving in the greenhouse.

Great to hear People like Robert Rippetoe in California and Viru in India have been trying to use Laevigata for ages, as have many other people. It's just not very cooperative. We need to try all kinds of strategies to get it's genes into the pool. I'm getting materials together now to undertake an experiment of my own. I'm not going to describe it too much because the substances I will be using are extremely toxic and I think it would be irresponsible of me to mention it here where others might try it and kill themself in the process, but in general I'm going to apply a chemical to the buds of a small cutting grown plant of laevigata and disrupt cellular division (mitossis) in an attempt to force it to mutate from diploid to tetraploid (if you really want to know about this google chromosome doubling). If we could get a tetraploid laevigata then maybe it's genes will marry more seamlessly with modern roses, the majority of which are tetraploid. I won't do this until spring when the laevigata is growing strongly. I've got a plant in a pot in the greenhouse at the moment for the purpose and have got all the chemicals needed to do it (am stressing about it becaise it is so dangerous), and will give it a go as it begins to warm up a bit down here. If this works then I'll do it to gigantea, bracteata, and clinophylla (and maybe rugosa) as well. There are natural examples of this happening. E.g. 'Kordesii' is a 'Max Graf' seedling and MG is diploid (and mostly sterile) and 'Kordesii' is tetraploid and very fertile... MG spontaneoulsy mutated (I'm generalising again) and formed a tetraploid hip (not to anyone growing 'Max Graf'. Keep a close eye on it and look for OP hips... if it forms any hips there is a very high chance it has happened again. It shows a predisposition to do this and it has happened a few more times since Kordes found this OP 'Max Graf' hip).

So... interesting times ahead. I'll either kill the laevigata (or myself ), or it will have no effect, or it will screw it up royally and end up with some kind of frankenrose or I'll end up with a tetraploid version of the species that will breed better withmodern roses

my head hurts

Simon take care.......we need you around for a very long time:)

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Good luck, Ozroz. I hope Simon is still alive to tell the tale

Simon

Watch out. If the rose starts calling you father then get out quick!

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Watch this space...you're going well, OZROZ.

I've found it's s good idea to pollinate Teas early on, as some can take a while to mature.

howdy dave
around southern nsw , the temperatures can get quite high, if you dont start early the heat will dry out the stigma's before the pollen can get in, every thing i put on safrano this year looks really good, have one more rose to use as a pollinator, which will be today , and then i am finished for the year, put in over 400 from last springs breeding , so there is a bit of work untill they are big enough to be treated as the older ones , which will be around january i hope

Safrano accepted every pollen I used on it last season, but I've had no germinations from it this season. I'm going to use it as a pollen parent instead.

I was just wondering about that, Simon. If a rose doesn't produce hips/fertile seeds, is its pollen fertile on other fertile roses?

"Safrano' has a list of descendants as long as your arm so it must be fertile and if you look at HMF it has been used as both a seed parent and a pollen parent. 'Safrano' is a diploid so that means it will make haploid pollen in all cases. It's pollen should therefore be fertile on most things... esp other diploids (don't know if you know what diploid and haploid means... I'll go into it if you don't ). A lot of times this comes down to ploidy and sometimes you can get some roses that work only as a pollen parent and others that make good seed parents. the fact that 'Safrano' made seeds at all suggests it IS a good seed parent but sometimes there is just too much 'rubbish' in the combinations we put on them to make them work. Other times it might be physical barriers that prevent germination... which is why I've been trying to learn embryo culture. No one has been able to get 'Paraire Princess' seeds to germinate on their own, yet Don Holeman and I have been able to get them to germinate by embryo culture. My little embryo cultured PP was very weak and died shortly after it started to grow. So it's really hard to make generalisations. Some roses work in one place and not in another. Mr Moore tried for a very long time to get something out of 'Green Ice'. I banged it in the ground here and get OP hips out of it every year and now have two seedlings from it.

I just checked my 'Lorraine Lee' x laevigata crosses and they have all failed already... so I've spent the afternoon putting laevigata on my little single pink seedling as well as other things like 'Ebb Tide' etc...

Thanks Simon. It's interesting - and obviously gets quite complicated and challenging!

As you know, I've tried Laevigata pollen for years. The few that have germinated have died - even if they started out looking healthy.

Good luck. It would be wonderful to have that Laevigata BS immunity bred into everything else!

BTW I'm working with Brindabella Bouquet both ways this season. With the daily rain and humidity - NO BS (yet). I'm impressed