Mystery rose identified

I had a visit last Sunday from an old friend and author of many rose books, Roger Mann. I showed him a rose (I called it Toronto Mystery Tea) which some thought might be an Alister Clark etc. Roger immediately thought it was 'Improved Cecile Brunner', so I checked it on HMF and there it was. I don't know if this rose is commercially available in Oz.
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Then Roger checked out my Monsieur Tilliers and said they were Archiduc Josephs! I know this is an endless debate, but Roger said the M.Tillier is more quartered than AJ. Mistydowns lists them both in their current catalogue. I'm tempted to try their MT!

So, there's a couple of mysteries solved by a legendary expert. Thanks, Roger!

I wonder what my MT is then? It arrived with two lots of cuttings... one labelled AJ and the other MT. This one was labelled MT. The AJ didn't strike.

Well done Dave and also Roger Mann for the ID of the Toronto rose. Dave when they say improved could you explain how it was "improved". I have noticed with some older roses they to have "improved" to their name.

Well i did a bit of a Google and it's known and grown in the USA. It's got no genetic connection to CB at all. Its parents were Dainty Bess x gigantea hybrid, so it bears no resemblance to CB in any way. "Improved" is just a marketing gimmick as you say. Not very fertile, but mine has one fat OP hip set.

Some people like it, others hate it. But it does make quite a show, is extremely tough, only grows just over a metre. A good garden shrub.

Simon, that looks like AJ - just like mine. The main difference, according to Roger, is that MT is more quartered. I'll talk to Judy at Mistydowns and see what she says.
The Tea ladies don't discuss AJ. It's only referred to. Don't think this will get sorted anytime soon:)

It might be the way my screen is set up, but it looks a bit pink for MT. Mme Lambard perhaps? She lurks under a string of names in Australia. But IDing roses is not a strong point of mine.
Be a bit wary - there's a "MT" around, imported from Beales' nursery, which is a pre-1938 climbing HT, Marie Nabonnand. Blood-red semi-double, with a good scent, and well worth growing.
Your Mystery rose looks nice.

Dave, does the ICB aka as the "Toronto rose" set any hips ?

I just re-read the 'M. Tillier' entry in the Tea book. Here's an excerpt from it, pg 146-147:

During the 1980s, in an effort to verify the identity of the Australian 'Monsier Tillier', the Rumseys imported 'Archiduc Joseph' fron the Europa-Rosarium Sangerhausen, Germany, and 'Monsieur Tillier' from an American source. At the same time, Ross Roses brought in 'Archiduc Joseph' from England. The three plants were swapped and also shared with David Ruston. After years of growth and comparison the imported roses have been found to be variable but undoubtedly the same rose (Ross 1997; Ruston 1997a)... In the United States the rose is still sold as 'Monsieur Tillier', and because there is a continuous history in Australia and New Zealand we have decided to use this name.

It seems, maybe, that all the 'M. Tillier' here are actually 'Archiduc Joseph'.. I wonder if the real 'M. Tillier' was ever imported.. I'd love to see them growing side-by-side.

I wonder if this is the real MT: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Interesting description, Simon. These two are notoriously hard to photograph in their true colours and also to describe in words - apart from the physical, botanical descriptions. I still need to ring Judy at Mistydowns and get her take on the two she sells.

The ones I've got came from a few different nurseries - including Nieuwesteegs, and they all look the same.

David, I've got one good looking hip on ICB, so will test it for viability. But generally not many hips.

Thanks Dave