Tuscany Superb - not

Simon, I visited Lilia Wetherley's garden today. Lilia is a very nice lady and is still breeding new roses.
Her garden is an absolute riot of roses. Huge bushes, small bushes, most of them very mature.
I took my unknowns to her in the hope of some identification. She has two seedling roses that are very similar to my Vivid-like rose. She also has a number that David Ruston could not identify as well, so I now see the task of naming every rose is impossible.
Lilia did tell me though that the rose I have been calling Tuscany Superb is definitely not Tuscany Superb. So do what you like with the bush I gave you.

Hi Dee.

The rose you gave me is growing nicely, is healthy and about to flower. It will be planted out over the next few weeks once I clear more ground for roses I think it's important not to throw roses away just because they are unknown. They were known at one point (unless they are self sown seedlings) and so are an important part of Australian rose history. Who knows... maybe one day we will know what they are. I have just read the abstract of an article that was about developing a DNA fingerprint database of known rose varieties for the purpose of identification. They were trying to evaluate various tests to choose one that was cheap, quick and reliable so if things go well then there could be a quick, easy and reliable method to ID found roses. If your rose remains unidentified maybe a study name could be given to it, for the purpose of identifying in future and recording where it was you found it. For instance, I found a Gallica/Damask/OGR growing in a field next on Don Rd in Don near the freeway bridge. I don't know what it is so I've been referring to it as "Don Rd Overpass Gallica" until I do know what it is.

On self-sown seedlings... I've always poo-hooed the idea of self-sown seedlings growing in a garden... until this year! I never thought it got cold enough here for the seeds to stratify properly. Last winter I trimmed all the hips off 'Heritage' and tossed them in the mulch around the plant and forgot about them. A few days ago I noticed a bunch of rose seedlings coming up around it so I guess there very well could be roses growing out there that ARE impossible to identify because they might be seedlings that do not appear on any official register anywhere in the world.

I'm almost able to take photos of my little grafted one too. It's shoot is now about 10cm long with leaves unfolding and expanding nicely. This one is 'Tuscany Superb'. Did Lilia say it could not be 'Tuscany' either? The two are quite similar.

Lilia said my red rose was nothing like Tuscany Superb.
Actually Lilia has more seedling roses growing in ther garden than I have every seen. Just about every rose i asked for its name was a seedling. And they were huge. Really big bushes.

Here's a photo of a leaf from my little 'Tuscany Superb':



Here's some photos of the unknown OGR you gave me Dee:

Ok, i've just worked it out !! Growing roses is like picking a woman up at a night club.....you don't need to know her name,as long as you enjoy her company !!!

I like to know their names so I know how they will breed that was too far.. I apologise...

The leaf in both of your photos looks the same to me.
Your little Tuscany Surperb, is that grown from the cuttings I send you from Lynette's garden ?

Sure is Karen I started losing all the cuttings (going black from the base up) so in desparation I did a few grafts... and this one took. It's about 15-20cm tall so far and will spend the next year or so in a large pot till it beefs up a bit.

That is great Simon.
I am not so wrapped up in own roots now. They are fantastic if you can keep them mulched and well watered, but if you have alot of rose plants to keep watered and it is very dry and you haven't put your mulch around early enough, I would take the long rooted grated rose instead now.
Your Pax are going well, that is the ones I put outside are ( had shade cloth over them for a while ), the one I put in the shade house in a pot died. I don't know why.

You know what I'm thinking our unknown rose is Dee.... it looks like Rosa gallica ''Officinalis' ('Apothecary's Rose' - see: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Hi,
The Apothecary's Rose doesn't have any white veining in the centre in the photos on HelpMeFind.
Barbara B

These ones do:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Hi,
not as much white and I don't think they have as many petals either.
Barbara B

I'm not so worried about these features, as they are highly variable features that can change with the season and location. The thing that has me doubting the ID of officianalis is the leaf. The leaf of Dee's rose is rather smooth without depressed veins As Lilia said it's nothing like Tuscany (or Tuscany SUperb) because they are much much darker. This one, however, produces loads and loads of pollen and I've started spreading it around.

Dee... I've got it!!!! This Gallica of yours isn't 'Tusacany Superb'... It's 'Tuscany'! Check out this link on HMF and compare it to my photo above... it's an absolute match

Link: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

The origin of 'Tuscany Superb' is not known exactly... some say it's a seedling of 'Tuscany' and others say it is a sport of 'Tuscany'... either way it's a beautiful rose. I have 'Tuscany Superb' from Karen growing on nicely now and will plant it out this coming winter and I think I'll put the two of them side-by-side to get a better idea of the differences... I've used your 'Tuscany' in a whole stack of crosses this year too Dee... can't wait to see if anything good comes out of it

Thanks Simon. I had a visit from the members of the Heritage Rose Society and they opined that my red unknown gallica, the same as I gave you is Tuscany. So you have verified it. Thankyou.
I don't think I will keep the other rose.

Which other one Dee?

When I visited Entally House recently I had a look at Tuscany Superb. It looked very close to Tuscany except I thought it was a darker red. A nice rose.
I'm pleased you are up and away with Tuscany Simon, i will be very interested to see what you get out of it.
I have another gallica that is more pink than Tuscany but similar otherwise. One visitor thought it could be Officinalis but it has more white in it then the examples in HMF. Its leaves have a strange mildew.
What do you think?
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Dee, I am going to put my foot in my mouth here and in my opinion, the rose in the 3 shots does not have the dreaded black spot. When I was at the rose farm we had a couple that grew the same as your leaf appears. I will have to go through the catalogues and try to find it. By then some other member might have found the answer, i will get back as soon as possible.

I've heard it called Damask Smut before... seems to be an issue with some of the OGR leaves of this sort... from what I can tell its a form of powdery mildew... 'Leda' gets it as well.

wedge wrote:Ok, i've just worked it out !! Growing roses is like picking a woman up at a night club.....you don't need to know her name,as long as you enjoy her company !!!

Yeh, the nameless ones can be fun but you are on a surer bet for the future if you know that she comes from a good family!