Australian Bred English roses

Some intersting points have been raised in another section of this forum that I would like to explore further. Following is my thoughts on the whole thing... they are fairly random...

Lots of people around the world have looked at the problem of growing roses for warm climates and have approached it in different ways. Many have taken the line of using hybrid tea roses that seem to do well in warm climates (such as Mr Lincoln) and crossing them with species roses from warm climates such as Rosa clinopylla, R. gigantea, and R. bracteata. Some have taken the line of putting HT and other modern roses with Teas and china roses because of their reputation for being hardy at higher temperatures. David Austin roses were borne out of a need to provide something other than hybrid teas and a desire to put the romance back into roses. On this he was extremely successful. By crossing old roses like Gallicas with modern HT and floribunda roses he was able to develop remontant roses that have the appearance of old world roses and from here it has really snowballed. It could be argued that part of the success of these roses was due to timing and these roses were seen as something new and a welcome breath of fresh air... and so were an immediate hit worldwide. DA roses have now spread to all corners of the globe and have established almost cult status in rose circles. It should be said, however, that many of these roses are not entirely suitable to Australian conditions in much the same way as many of the other modern roses originating overseas aren't. Many seem to love it here and are often reported to grow to more expansive proportions here than they do in colder climates. I'm not convinced that this is an entirely good thing because at times 'more extensive' translates as long and lanky with poor form bordering on climber proportions (a job a lot are well suited to). I think that the idea behind the English roses is a brilliant one and has been responsible in many ways the resurgence of interest in growing roses. I would like to see Australian breeders take a leaf out of DA's book and see what can be achieved to develop similar roses specifically for Australian conditions. This is where I think the Teas play and important part. They have all the attributes to make them suited to Australian conditions... they love heat, they are very disease resistant, they are often very fertile, they are bushy making them ideal in the landscape and the list goes on. I would like to see people go back to the old roses and put them into Teas to develop English style Australia roses... the question is which older roses. Bourbons are not sufficiently healthy under no-spray regimes to warrant inclusion despite being in the Tea rose's ancestory. Noisettes are a likely candidate and are already remontant. Chinas I think are also likely candidates. Some of the hybrid musks, like Buff Beauty, might be good candidates and I think some of the Gallica would also be of use, like Tuscany and Tuscany Superb. Remontant seedlings would be a long way off using some of the older roses. It would be necessary, I think, to go back to the Tea frequently and concentrate on identifying features that you want to keep from each line... I would almost say you would want to keep everything from the Tea and just change the flower form and colour. I also think trying to establish miniature lines and doing ground cover crosses with Teas would yield positive results. Roses with an obvious Rosa wichuraiana influence also thrive in many places in Australia. Combining these two gene lines might also yield positive results and be a stepping stone towards introducing Teas into miniatures. One thing I think is important to keep in mind is that this is not a short term project. I really like the idea of starting with Safrano and have ordered it for this mailorder season. I don't know what it is about this rose but I love everything about it. I also love Lady Hillingdon. The Tea book quotes both of these as being fertile and they are proven parents. Monsieur Tillier has also been recommended as a good parent. Lady Hillingdon is reputed to be triploid... one of the fertile triploids in this case so it seems. Rosa bracteata is a rose that I'm excited about at the moment. There are some examples of bracteata hybrids with DA roses that are proving to be every bit as adaptable to warm climates as Teas are and they have the look of DA roses. I've ordered a Rosa bracteata to also explore this line of breeding and think it will be quite exciting working with it. I also think rugosa hybrids have something to offer... but this is a longer term project. Cree has (rightly) said that rugosa roses are cold weather specialists that laugh in the face of extreme weather but struggle with heat. They are also VERY hardy and might be able to contribute some of this hardiness to warmer weather roses down the track. If disease resistance is a primary concern then rugosa has loads to offer and I think it would be short sighted to rule it out... no one said it was going to be easy... Anyway... these are my random thoughts and I have thought very hard about this and researched it for a long time and am ready to make my move on it. What do you think?

Why not breeding with Sympathy ?

This rose is known as very heat resistent and ideal for breeding, it's fertil and the seeds have a good germination rate. When you look on the lineage, there are some of the roses, you want to use for your project, there are HT's, such as 'Don Juan' and 'New Yorker' as well as 'rosa wichuariana' and 'Safrano'. Already from self pollination you will get the full range of colours and growth forms, from miniatures up to climbers and some of them very fragrant!

Remember this one:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Von [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

So the dinner is nearly prepared, you only have to season it. A dash of 'Gallica', is a good idea, will make it delicous, especially the foilage.
For my part, I'm going to test 'Sympathie x 'Rose de resht'

regards Bemo

Simon, have just come over from the Grafted T Q that you posted last night. I looked over and over your form of multiflora, it would have potential for your breeding plans, maybe a long plan one. I think, as you say it has a lot of the rugosa leaf about it. My form is totally different. I assume it sets good seed. Some of it's traits might go with the afore mentioned rose in your post above. Just as a side to this Brundretts were the people that we got all our original rootstock from. They had a list of 150 different forms of rootstock or were suitable as rootstock. Maybe you could contact them and find some sort of history to yours.

Thanks David... this is something I need to learn more about... there seems to be as many rootstocks as there are ornamental rose varieties. I have four different ones here: two multiflora ones, Dr Huey, and Gloire des Rosomanes. I have Vielchenblau and it has been used as a rootstock in the past but it is not as vigorous a plant as the multiflora ones I have and is more of a rambler and my multiflora seem to do much better here on my acidic ground than the Dr Huey and plants grown on Dr Huey don't do as well as the ones on Multiflora on my acidic ground. My multiflora plant behaves more like a lax shrub than a multiflora rambler. I also have a rose that Cree has suggested is Rosa inidca major and it was used as a rootstock as well. It roots really easily but it doesn't seem to get up and go like the multiflora ones. Both my multiflora ones set seed in abundance and I've collected a bag-full from each one. There will be a huge amount of variation in the seedlings, however, so I am not really sure what to expect from them. The plan was to sow them directly in a series of long beds in my back paddock and just let them grow in-situ so they can be evaluated for vigour, ease of propagation, suckering etc. The multiflora hybrid in the link above does not seem to sucker for me (yet) and they are cutting grown. It strikes very easily and its flowers have the most intense fruity fragrance. These two bushes can be smelt from a considerable distance. The other multiflora I have has a more conventional multiflora leaf and has a pink single flower with a white centre and virtually no fragrance. I've been trying to strike some cuttings of Rosa multiginosa too because it is meant ot be a good rootstock... but do you think I can get even a single one to strike The Violette cuttings that Karen sent me have all taken as well so at a pinch I could use this hybrid multiflora as well (gives people something nice to look at when/if the top section dies off ). So it's all very interesting. I've sent Karen one of these little multiflora hybrids and I have a tray full ready for next year. Would you like one or two David?

David Clark, a breeder and rose enthusiast on the NSW Central Coast, sent me an email this morning with some photos of the most beautiful Tea x DA crosses. He has said I can publish these photos here so I'd love to share them with you...

This rose is a Comtesse de Labarthe x Wife of Bath. It's just lovely and to use David's words:

It has all the qualities I've been looking for, with the best of both parents. Under 1 m high, good foliage, many shades of pink and white depending on the weather, a very good cut flower, lots of flushes.

David has been breeding roses for a long time now and has been interested in DA x Teas for some time. If his roses are anythng to go by we can expect to see lots of excellent roses borne out of DA crosses with roses such as Teas for Australian conditions.

Now that is a fantastic rose. the lovely colour in the centre gives it great charisma . If you read this David what is the perfume like, strong or more like a Tea. I would like to see the bud. Once again FANTASTIC you are very talented. Carole.

Congratulations David for breeding that lovely rose. I think that colour combination is very feminine and delicate.
I would like to know what the form is? Shrub? Florabunda?
And the perfume. My Wife of Bath is myrrh, not my favourite, so what is the perfume of this new rose?
Do you intend registering it?

Thanks for your kind comments.
The perfume is light and sweet - more like the Duchesse. Can't detect any myrrh.
Growth so far is short, under 1 m. Like a florabunda. Time will tell.
May register it.

Dave, Nice to have you over here on this site As you will have noticed I am posting under my name instead of Davids (Roseman). You certainly grow some fantastic roses. So a very warm WELCOME. Carole.

David, have you done any work with 'Abraham Darby' and Teas yet? I'm interested to see how that would look and 'AD' sets seed VERY easily. Work done O/S with 'AD' and various other classes of roses looks very promising.

I've done quite a lot with AD over the years, but the seeds are not very fertile. I have one plant AD x Titian which didn't flower last year. Looks like a pillar type rose. Stay tuned

But I am going to do a lot with M. Tillier this spring, especially crosses with AD. I've already sown lots of OP seeds from MT to check on the fertility.

I've got a couple of very healthy plants of Tamora X Queen Elizabeth in the greenhouse. Pics in spring!

BTW I'll post the CD to you this week.

Dave, you like AD a lot I think, is it because sets good or the colour. Of the DA's which have you used if you do not mind telling us all. Do you think the DA's will cross with other forms of roses, let say Bourbons or Gallicas to name some, be interesting to hear your thoughts on this.

David, I'm working on AD x M Tiller this season. I'v sown seeds of AD x Maggie and AD x Queen Elizabeth so hope they will germinate!

I'm really interested in crossing DAs with Tillier as the latter is by far the best rose around here. It grows too big for the average garden, so looking for some progeny that are a bit more useful - as well as beautiful.

Putting Abe over the Queen seems an interesting cross, apricot and pink. What do you think the outcome colour might be The Queens size and the quartered look of Abe would be nice. I got the mail, thank you, will email tonight.

Well QE is still pretty fertile round here, bless her! I've just had a bloom of QE x Chaucer *dreaming of some luscious cupped pink thing* and got a verry pointy HT - but with great perfume.

I'm going to put 'Abraham Darby' on some rugosa hybrids and species I have here to see how that turns out too. DA released a rose a little while back called 'Doreen Pike', which is a hybrid rugosa with old English type flowers (pink) and it seemed what he did was to put his old english roses over rugosa hybrids and then inbreed them to bring the rugosa back out. I think I'm going to start with Abe (or 'Mary Rose') on 'Scabrosa', 'Ann Endt', and R. rugosa 'alba'. and then mix up the offspring of these (will be like inbreeding... only not! lol). Going to try the same thing with Mons. Tiller and rugosa if I can get mine to grow (might be calling on some propagating material in the future if my cutting, which HAS struck but is tiny doesn't work).

Thinking of all this breeding has got me thinking , I know it is a very long shot, Dave or Simon, any thoughts on the import of tissue culture of roses, I know this is in the wrong area at present , if someone has thoughts it could go to the appropriate area for comments.

I'm not aware of anyone producing tissue culture roses O/S David... there was a discussion on RHA about it at one stage though. I'm talking to Jim Sproul about having some hulthemia hybrid seeds brought in though. They are on the allowable imports list (as Rosa hybrida or Rosa floribunda because they are now classed as floribunda) and in small quantities can be sent by ordinary mail from the U.S. so long as they are marked as rose seeds var. Rosa hybrida (or floribunda) on the front of teh envelope. So, whilst they won't breed true to type they will introdcue genes that may prove useful or different here in Australia. I'm interested in the Rosa persica (aka hulthemia) genes because R. persica comes from a place with extreme weather conditions (in the hot and humid range as well) and they are extremely drought tolerant that roots well and grows on its own roots... features useful here in Australia. They are low scrappy looking plants though the hybrids are looking really nice. Jim was saying I could buy some of his open pollinated hulthemia hybrid seeds off him to kick things off. His work is amazing (and he is an amazingly nice person as well). His hulthemia hybrids can be seen here: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

No I was thinking more along the sterile conditions that they are grown in and it might be a way to import wood earlier than other methods

I think the propagation 'methods' are sterile... doesn't mean the propagating material is though.

EDIT: I know that micro-propagation isn't enough to completely remove RMV from roses so maybe other stuff can get through this way still too *shrugs*

Thanks for the interesting link on Hulthemias, Simon. Amazing work and results.
And I'll pot up some M. Tillier cuttings this morning. No one should have to put up with a struggling MT!!

Thanks Dave... much appreciated

Dave.. check out:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

and

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Simon, in simple terms can you explain how the same 2 parents come up with one pink child and one yellow.

I wonder how most of these roses would perform up in my climate Simon ?? If anyone is looking for a testing ground for these new roses, i'd be more than happy to grow some here to see how they stand up to Mackay's heat and humidity in summer.