Two more mysteries

#1:
This rose grows next door. It was already there when my neighbor moved in and she doesn’t know what it is. When she was nice enough to let me have a cutting, I offered to try and find out what it was.
The photos don’t really do justice to its true velvetiness, but the colour is pretty spot-on.
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I didn’t really detect a strong fragrance when I was in her garden around midday, and think she said it wanted to climb, but it didn’t look like that to me (maybe she’s pruning the long canes).
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The cutting has taken very well and it looks like this rose strikes very easily for many, as I can see several of its kind in our street.

#2:
This is the only cutting I managed to successfully propagate during my first trials in my old garden; another neighbor who didn’t know what it was gave it to me.
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It has a strong sweet rose fragrance when the temperature is right, very large deep green leaves and strong thorny stiff canes. Can you spot the bee?
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The flowers were a bit smaller, more densely packed and definitely quartered last year, and more blowsy this time around. Very strange … I didn’t prune very hard; could that be it?
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I have successfully propagated several cuttings again this year.

top could be a satchmo, and the bottom is a toss up between a gold bunny and holt gold.......

the roseman is an expert on yellows.....

Thanks Neptune. I’ll follow up on your suggestions right away …

Rose #1 is very dark red, velvety and semi-double, it looks very different to Satchmo and I think it probably wouldn’t be a HT.

Rose #2 doesn’t have a high center like Gold Bunny and definitely has a stronger fragrance than indicated for it. It was quartered and looked much more like an old rose last year. Only this year it appeared more blowsy like in the photos.
I cannot find a listing for your second suggestion, but thanks for making it.

holtermans gold

and you could try limelight, also is the yellow a florabunda?

How old is the suburb your talking about Jac and can you get a photo of the crown of each original rose

Jac2 wrote:Rose #1 is very dark red, velvety and semi-double, it looks very different to Satchmo and I think it probably wouldn’t be a HT.

I'd agree. Satchmo is the kind of red that makes your eyes water and cameras really have trouble.
I'd be suspecting it is Dr Huey. It acts like it "wants" to climb. But then doesn't.

Wendy do you think it is purpleish enough for the good Dr

Reds can be tricky to photograph but the second pic shows that purple-ish look.
The photos on HMF are a good resource in regards to the good Dr...

The Yellow would be a Floribunda, rather than a HT, I think Neptune; again Holterman’s Gold and Limelight have a higher center, and HMF doesn’t say if the blooms appear as one or several per stem; this one was a cluster of four.
Note also the buds show orange red pigmentation (I can’t do advanced searches on HMF). When I started to painstakingly retrieve every yellow rose on HMF to work out what it was last year, I became convinced it was Happy Child (well I made it to ‘H’ and probably had enough), but the buds are wrong and mine also has thorns.
What strikes me most are it’s huge leaves (Big Purple type, not as big yet this year as last) and they bruise very easily. E.g., when they rub against each other in the wind or get squeezed in a bud cluster they develop black smudges, which I first mistook for bs, but they’re definitely not; look like well defined stripes or smears rather than ink running into wet paper.
Otherwise, it came from my old garden, and therefore forms part of my Indestructible Collection; I took the cutting in 2009 and the bush is 1.2m tall today, having strong, straight thorny canes. I cannot get a photo of the crown of each original rose at the moment, David, as I deadheaded a couple of days ago.


Oh, YES, Dr. Huey is absolutely spot on, looking at more photos on HMF.
This is definitely a very close likeness to what I saw in my neighbor’s garden; and she did say it wanted to climb, although it doesn’t actually next door. If it is, I just have the perfect spot for my cuttings (managed to get two out of it - looking at the beauties that are allowed to climb on HMF, hope SO).
She, Wendy, couldn’t say how old the bush was, because it came with the house. I’ll e-mail her some HMF images and see, if they’ll ring a bell for her, too.
Thanking you muchly, Wendy; and also Neptune and David for having a go at the Yellow.

I cannot get a photo of the crown of each original rose at the moment, David, as I deadheaded a couple of days ago.
The above is from you Jac, the "crown" I was referring to is of the plant, bud union.

Oh … ups. The bush grew from a cutting I propagated in 2009 and would not have a graft union.

just to go "off topic" for a moment, that second last yellow photo has a good shot of the bee heading for its target......kool...

Aha, you’ve spotted it! My garden is a bee paradise, especially in the mornings and they’re going for all the flowers, including the roses. But they’re especially taken with the poppies at the moment, and I see two trying to get into the same poppy.