Glyphosphate Damage

Silky, are you using the method which we use in the vineyard. We cut the vine and paint the complete surface as soon as possible(within 3 seconds) with what I call commercial Glysophate(480g/L). It is essential to cover the cambium layer(the living part).

Wendy, I would suspect the Rugosa ? would be cutting grown and that might be why it is surviving IMO

Thats how I kill camphour Laurels as well. If I don't do it more or less straght away it does not work and I have to cut a couple more inches off the stump.

I like the way everyone mentions Glysophte becomes inactive very soon after contact with the ground when in actual fact it doesn't. No doubt it becomes inactive over time after a lot of rain. I did kill around 150 roses by planting in previously sprayed ground. We all have had experience with this product and have happy and sad tales to tell.
David I understand you use a lot of it in grape culture and have strengths and methods of application fine tuned. However I must relate my rose killing experience or proof that it does remain active.

Type of soil, light sandy with light clay 12 to 15 inches down.
Base product is "Wipe Out" 360g/litre Glysophate.
Spray concentration is 1 1/2 cans of the above in 5 litres of water.
Cans were Tuna cans 95 grams content by weight but don't know the exact volume. Did work out this quantity before and discarded the plastic measuring cup.

Sprayed tall grass February ,clover, Paspalum, rye and Kikuyu. After grass died it was slashed and raked. Approx 6 weeks later regrowth from seeds was sprayed again and allowed to lay without raking.

Multiflora cuttings were planted late May and graft budded in October
The understocks looked OK though not quite as green as others adjacent in non sprayed ground. Upon budding the rind looked OK but when cut the cambium layer next to the wood was light to dark brown.
The buds appeared to take with about a 95% success rate remaining green right up to time of activating in December. The buds started to swell and shoot until approx 1" long then stopped growing. They remained in that condittion for months and eventually all died except for about 1%.

I came to the conclusion Glysophate remains active in the soil.

After my experiences I happened to be looking through the Tomas for Roses list and noticed one of his DONT'S which is as follows:-
Don't use weedicide or pre emergence weedicides for at least six months before planting, do not dig in weedicide dead weeds.
Looks like we have had similar experiences with new plantings though realise established plants are not as effected.

Roseman, I think the problem might be I'm not fast enough to paint it on. Within 3 seconds? OK will do that next time it shoots. Thanks, hope that saves me a lot of frustration.

Silkyfizz, at home it is a two person job. David cuts and I paint.

Military precision by the sound of it Carole. Thanks for the tip.

Bruce what was in the sprayed area prior ?
Did all the rootstock/budded plants die?
How was the callus on the rootstock ?
Same soils in each bed I assume.
Same watering again I assume.
"Wipe Out" 360 is a commercial brand, did it come in a 20Lt drum ?
Clay soils are the one's that interfere with Glysophate the most as the particle are the smallest.

Glyphosate is the active ingredient of "Round-Up" type non selective plant killers. This type of product can be a problem for rose growers because of the following characteristics:

1) Overspray (drift) can damage roses.

2) Its effect on a plant is concentration dependent. (For example, at very low dosages glyphosate simply acts as a growth hormone (hormesis). ) Thus someone may say "it is not Round-Up damage, I have seen Round-Up damage and it is different." The following pictures should give the reader an idea of how variable Round-Up damage can be.

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A description of possible Round-Up damage symptoms on roses is given by an article in the Marin Rose Society newsletter. I would particularly like to point out one of the possible symptoms:

"Strange looking, thickened growth, often dark red or purple in color" as at least one Extension Plant Pathologist has stated (slide 28): that Glyphosate damage does not cause reddened new growth.

3) Overspray is not the only way glyphosate can reach your roses. The Round-Up can leave the roots of a treated weed, pass through the soil, and be picked up by the roots of nearby rose bushes. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] (see page 19 and 20)

4) The glyphosate could remain bound in the soil for long time periods.

"Glyphosate [(N-(phosphonomethyl)glycine)] is a widely used herbicide and it is known to compete for the same sorption sites in soil as phosphorus. Persistence and losses of glyphosate were monitored in a field with low phosphorus status and possible correlation between glyphosate and phosphorus leaching losses was studied. Glyphosate and its metabolite AMPA (aminomethyl phosphonic acid) residues in soil samples were analysed after a single application in autumn. Twenty months after the application the residues of glyphosate and AMPA in the topsoil (0�25 cm) corresponded to 19% and 48%, respectively, of the applied amount of glyphosate, and traces of glyphosate and AMPA residues were detected in deeper soil layers (below 35 cm). These results indicate rather long persistence for glyphosate in boreal soils."

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Then, when you add fertilizer with P; the glyphosate could be released.

"The results suggest that re-mobilisation of glyphosate may represent an additional transfer pathway for glyphosate to non-target plants which is strongly influenced by soil characteristics such as P fixation potential, content of plant-available iron, pH, cation exchange capacity, sand content and soil organic matter."

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5) Round-Up can cause problems even if sprayed last summer or fall. A quote from Roses: Cultural Practices and Weed Control: "Roses are also very sensitive to glyphosate (Roundup and many other trade names), which can be absorbed through the green stems in addition to the leaves. Glyphosate damage may appear at bud break the following spring after a summer or fall application that contacts leaves or stems; symptoms include a proliferation of small, narrow shoots and leaves."

Thanks Henry, as usual, very thorough,but a lot of variables. In most correspondence on this subject , the word "could" comes in. Not only from your reply, but others. No I do not site references Henry as I am not that smart. I guess we may disagree on this, but that is ok.

Thanks Henry, I'll go through the information you have supplied in great detail.

David in answer to your questions here are some details in the order of your list.
1 The sprayed area was a collection native grasses mowed 15 years and grew stone fruit (Peaches, Plums ans Nectrins for 40 years prior.
The previous owner and I used copper for fungus and Lebaycid for Fruit Fly. Winter oil was used on trunk and limbs during winter.

2 The understocks didn't die but were discarded as the buds did not grow past 1 to 1 1/2 inches and showed distorted growth then died right off. In an adjacent area all rows grew normally after activating and had to be staked at around 15" to avoid blow offs. I didn't rebud the understocks the second time as I can get enough problems with viruses bringing in buds little own doing them twice.

3 Callus, sorry can't answer this as possibly didn't pay much attention at the time.

4 Yes, same soil exactly in both beds.

5 Same watering, very wet season. Most water via a downpipe from the roof.

6 "Wipe Out" in a 20 litre plastic drum.

7 No, not clay but quite light, grade 6' in 72 feet (Or 1 in 12). No clay or silt, would put a grain between pads in a micrometer but grains would vary that much.

The season I had the problem I bud grafted around 700. All were chip budded on 6 month old Multiflora understocks.

A loss of 2 in 7 is hard to swallow particularly now I'm ancient and find nothing works well anymore like eyes, fingers knees and brain etc. Really ,nothing works like it used to so I'm thinking of closing the nursery and just continue breeding. There comes a time in life to cut back even though I love the roses so much. Try watering 600 roses in pots during summer and you will see what I mean.

roseman wrote:Thanks Henry, as usual, very thorough,but a lot of variables. In most correspondence on this subject , the word "could" comes in. Not only from your reply, but others. No I do not site references Henry as I am not that smart. I guess we may disagree on this, but that is ok.

I'm going to disagree with you on this one.
The scientific studies aren't saying "this could happen" in a theoretical sense.
They are saying:
* Glyphosate DOES persist in soils (especially low Phosphorus ones)
* Glyphosate DOES affect plants grown subsequently in that soil (especially if there is application of phosphorus fertiliser)
* Glyphosate DOES transfer out of targeted plants into the soil

I think the area still under investigation is the MODE by which the glyphosate reactivates/transfers rather than "does it happen?".

In Bruce's case - with a sandy soil (probably marginal in P...) - it was a HIGH RISK situation. Borne out by the result.
On other soils - especially heavy/clays this probably changes.

From personal experience:
1) An old established rose bush in a (couch) lawn. During winter the grass was weeded and painstakingly "painted" with glyphosate. The rose showed no damage. In light of the information Henry presented I would surmise that limited amount of application meant limited leaching to the soil AND the lawn is never fertilised (therefore no P to release the stored roundup).
2) Rose bushes sprayed around in winter in a dedicated garden bed. Come spring these bushes show massive damage exactly like the pictures.

As I mentioned earlier - concentration matters.
Yes, there are VARIABLES (soil / weather/ application etc) that will affect results but that is the same with anything.
Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater....

:takes off scientist's hat:

Ozeboy wrote:Thanks Henry, I'll go through the information you have supplied in great detail.

David in answer to your questions here are some details in the order of your list.
1 The sprayed area was a collection native grasses mowed 15 years and grew stone fruit (Peaches, Plums ans Nectrins for 40 years prior.
The previous owner and I used copper for fungus and Lebaycid for Fruit Fly. Winter oil was used on trunk and limbs during winter.
What was used under the canopy to eliminate the weeds/grasses

2 The understocks didn't die but were discarded as the buds did not grow past 1 to 1 1/2 inches and showed distorted growth then died right off.
If the understock did not have sufficient growth is it possible the buds had not mated and only used thier reserve energy to grow to that point. Where had the budwood been sourced from, is it also possible they could have been contaminated
In an adjacent area all rows grew normally after activating and had to be staked at around 15" to avoid blow offs. I didn't rebud the understocks the second time as I can get enough problems with viruses bringing in buds little own doing them twice.

3 Callus, sorry can't answer this as possibly didn't pay much attention at the time.
Bruce I was thinking more the rootstock

4 Yes, same soil exactly in both beds.
Just out of curiosity a question comes to mind, you say in each bed, the bed that lived did it have the fruit trees in it or the other ?

5 Same watering, very wet season. Most water via a downpipe from the roof.

6 "Wipe Out" in a 20 litre plastic drum.

7 No, not clay but quite light, grade 6' in 72 feet (Or 1 in 12). No clay or silt, would put a grain between pads in a micrometer but grains would vary that much.

The season I had the problem I bud grafted around 700. All were chip budded on 6 month old Multiflora understocks.
Maybe understocks not mature enough, only guessing without seeing them

A loss of 2 in 7 is hard to swallow particularly now I'm ancient and find nothing works well any more like eyes, fingers knees and brain etc. Really ,nothing works like it used to so I'm thinking of closing the nursery and just continue breeding. There comes a time in life to cut back even though I love the roses so much. Try watering 600 roses in pots during summer and you will see what I mean.

Bruce you have many more years left in your ancient bones, have you considered do all or most of your work on benches, just trying to help mate.

Wendy you make a great scientist, do not go to the doghouse(just yet).
One thing about Glyphosate is drift, not quite visible to the eye.
Wendy what makes Phosphorus and Glyphosate friendly, is it a chemical bond/attraction ?

Spraydrift is the "usual" way most people assume plants would get contaminated with pesticides. (Not wrong either.) It's useful to point out that contamination can happen in other ways too.

What makes glyphosate and phosphorus so friendly? Well... I'm not a chemist and I'm not studying that area but from the information that Henry kindly provided I'd say it's related to the fact that glyphosate contains phosphorus. (glyphosate = (N-(phosphonomethyl)glycine) )
It also appears that these interactions affect the soil's microbes which influences degradation / damage.

Too much chemistry for a Sunday.... I think I had better go lie down!

Phos and Phos, should not bond. Henry is a chemist he might be able to help.
what did they say :take a Bex and lie down" lucky we do not have Bex any more I guess

It really must have something to do with the soil or weather or temperature of something. Most of our gardens were established by spraying the grass with roundup, waiting for several weeks and spraying it again to get the stuff I missed, kickalong or dynamic lifter or some other chook poo pellets and lime thrown onto the ground, the garden then covered in mulch (usually grass hay or sugar cane mulch).

Roses etc are then planted (within a day or so of the second spay) by digging down through the sprayed grass which is mulched up in the soil using the trusty shovel mulcher or if it is still green thrown into the wheel barrow.

The soil from the holes dug is then mixed with more chook poo pellets and lime and put back in the hole and the roses planted in the mixed up soil. After a couple of months (depending on the rainfall) I need to spay weeds that come up through the mulch which I doo and no doubt some spray drift must happen. If I do see it on the leaves I give them a hose but sometimes I would miss it.

So going by the above posts our roses should be showing all sorts of damage but I have never seen any damage that looks anything like the photos. I fact I have not ever noticed any damage at all that could be attributed to the spaying apart from when my big hoof steeps on something.

So I guess it must have something to do with the soil of weather or rose type because be buggered if I have ever noticed anything that could be attributed to the roundup.

David, Wendy, Henry, thanks for your input. Initially I wanted to alert most of our friends on the forum that Glysophate does remain active in the soil and be very careful when using it. At the other end of the scale I had a patch of Bindies about 300mm in diameter appear within 150mm of a rose bush so sprayed it with Glysophate expecting the rose would have to be replaced. The Bindi died and the rose was not effected. Gary, I've come to the conclusion that very mature plants seem to cope with some presence of Glysophate and new growth can be effected even when on an understock showing very little sign of stress.

David to further answer your questions
1 The undergrowth around the trees was controlled mostly by shallow disc ploughing and slashing so can't ever see an accumulation of herbicides.

2 Understocks grew very well as it was a real shock to see what happened to the activated buds. In light of this I questioned the supplyer of the buds who mentioned no use of herbecides.
Effected buds actually came from 3 sources so it's definately the area here that they were grown in.

4 Callusing around the buds was very good. It's always an indicator how long buds have been grafted prior to removing the tape.
Same as #2 understocks grew very well due to the wet season.

Let's call it quits at this stage but be aware of problems that may occur when using Glysophate. The only survivor was a plant of 'Cousin Essie' which may prove to be very hardy.