Wetting agent

Today I went to the peony show here in Melbourne to have a look see and pick up some tips. Got to talking with one of the main growers and as he gave me advice on wilt he stressed to use a wetting agent to use with the fungicide. Oh you mean couple of drops of detergent, says I. No, no, no. The wetting agent actually sticks to the leaf and helps smother the fungus, it's not soluble like detergent and triples effectiveness of fungicide. Waste of time spraying if you don't use a wetting agent. He's learned this over many years of research and trial/error. He also grows roses and uses same idea. Maybe this explains varying results of the use of bicarb solution?
This was news to me so I thought I'd share. With so many experienced growers and rosarian experts, this may be basic knowledge of course. I'm going to go out and buy some (will last me for ages).
Oh and he swears by Seamungus, for what it's worth.

I use two types of so call wetting agent.....and I agree with the above gentleman...

1- is a true wetting agent and is purly there to help and stick the fungicide to the leaves...also called a adjuvant and expensive

2- the other I use is like a wetting agent(in a small way) but its job is to help the foliar fertilizer to penetrate the waxy outside of the leaves and allows the leaves to soak in the goodness......

Neptune
What are the names of the wetting agents you use?

Balinbear wrote:Neptune
What are the names of the wetting agents you use?

Gary...1- is called Saturator and 2- is called Penetrator......

Thanks Neptune.
See, I thought you guys would know. All new to me of course!

Neptune i've never , ever heard of those products , where do you buy them from ? Thanks

Thanks

I have heard of saturator (or something like that) but not penetrator

Neptune, do you mean Saturaid? Isn't that a soil wetting agent? He was adamant the wetting agent for foliage is not the same for soil.

saturator....need to go to a hydroponic store.......

Ahh thanks.

Non Ionic or Ionic

Excellent info, Silky, thanks for sharing …
Found this link for Saturator

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and this for Penetrator, which @ $119.99 for 5L will “piggyback your foliar applied elements using custom designed high energy proteins …”

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I’d expect them to be exceedingly high energy proteins; sorry, merely high energy proteins don’t quite justify that cost …

Reading the product blurbs, I find references to light bulbs, Neptune, are these products that are specifically designed for the use in hydroponic set ups?

Good to know wetting agents for foliage and for soil are distinct products …

Amway, sell a product which is reputed to be good, might be a bit pricey tho

Have you used wetting agents to aid your foliar spays, and if so have you noticed a marked increase in their effectiveness, David?

Jac over the years I have used certain "wetters" for different applications in a couple of industries. Wetters are sometimes linked to certain chemicals/products by the manufacturer of the chemical.
To be honest Jac my roses most of the time "live" on thier own merits. I took a photo of my climbing 'Peace' this morning and found aphids plus some mites. Will I spray, maybe/maybe not. My roses do it tough.
I research the problem, the remedy, and then look at whether the addition will help. Looking at the plant and when the plant "will" uptake the the spray is very important. So after this very long reply you need to see if the correlation between the plant and spray and "wetter" work. The application of a "spray" which entails water needs the surface area of it to be "de-tensioned". The area of a leaf has things called cells. Some of the are called 'guard cells' and other are called the 'stomata' if they are not receptive the "spray" will not work.
So in answer to your question the correlation between the foliage spray and wetter has to be in unison, if that makes sense of my "woffal"

That wasn’t woffal at all, David. I am looking at the products I use and the claims that are made about them very carefully, too. That includes all the products I buy, not just for my roses, and this sounds a bit like the cosmetics industry’s claims about the many miracle ingredients, which will aid the absorption of other miracle active ingredients, which I know are water soluble and therefore cannot be absorbed by the skin no matter what, but will instead sit only on the surface layer…
But the idea that plants do take up some nutrients through their foliage has been around for some time and related products are selling well, surly there must be some peer revived studies out there that we can access …
At the same time, I have notice a definite change in the colour and surface reflection of my roses’ leaves since I started to spray worm tea, and that’s not just in my imagination. I.e., I continue to see this difference, even after the excitement of first getting a worm farm has worn off.

Jac, I am not a advocate for chemical or organic in any way. I am leaning towards the idea of worm tea. I have a friend which has large farm and on he has one paddock which has terrible soil, he has introduced worm tea to it with amazing results

Yes, I’m very happy I heard about worm tea here on RTA …

Back to topic, would adding a wetting agent increase the effectiveness of my worm tea? Honestly, I suspect it does its magic on the leaves’ surface, but would consider adding some w. agents to boost its action, having seen such a definite positive effect …

Ok, I was wrong about foliar sprays being probably active only on the leaves’ surface. Here's some good info I found on Foliar Feeding, including comments on wetting agents further down. It even provides an explanation as to why I got a fine crispy line around some leaves after drenching them in my bicarb solution.

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Was at least half right about elements’ likelihood to make it into the leaves and from there into cells; also check out this for the distinction between a wetting agent and a delivery agent, apparently a still better way of transporting elements through various barriers. Interesting stuff …

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Jac2 wrote:

Neptune, are these products that are specifically designed for the use in hydroponic set ups?

even though they were made for hydro set up, they still can be used on non-hydro plants. It was a commercial hydro rose grower who put me on to it. Also it is way cheaper than the adjuvants than the farmers use and you can buy it in 1ltr quantities as compared to the 10ltrs drums that will take a lifetime to use up

So I got stuck into wetting agents and delivery agents all day yesterday, ending up with restricting my searches to peer reviewed articles so that my information wasn’t adulterated by promotional blurbs for any fancy expensive products that I probably don’t need, as well a sink full of dishes, an overrun laundry and a very hungry, cranky James.

Recap:
A WETTING AGENT is an agent that lowers surface tension, i.e., it creates smaller droplets of water and allows it to stick to the leaves rather than rolling off. Consequently, the maximum surface area of the leaves is in contact with whatever is sprayed.

A DELIVERY AGENT facilitates nutrients’ entry through protective barriers in the leaves’ surface and cells.

You already know how to make your own wetting agent, Silky; it’s the same recipe as for the bicarb solution, without the bicarb.

With respect to a good delivery agent, Fulvic Acid, seems to be the bee’s knees.

“Fulvic Acid readily combines with minerals and metals making them bio-available and easily absorbable through the cell walls. It makes miners such as iron that are not usually very mobile easily transported through structures. Fulvic Acids also dissolve and transpose vitamins, phytochemicals, coenzymes, auxins, hormones and natural antibiotics that are generally found throughout the soil matrix, making them bio-available. These substances are effective in stimulating even more vigorous and healthy growth, proceeding certain bacteria, fungi, and actinomyceles in decomposing vegetation in the soil. … Fulvic Acid is hydroscopic, it will attach to water.”

(ORGANIC MATTER, HUMUS, HUMATE, HUMIC ACID, FULVIC ACID AND HUMIN: THEIR IMPORTANCE IN SOIL FERTILITY AND PLANT HEALTH
Dr. Robert E. Pettit
Emeritus Associate Professor Texas A&M University)
And there were thousands of articles on the subject, but this one was the best by far.

So I woke up on the couch with my laptop still on my chest this morning:
Fist thing, I read over my fulvic acid notes. Second, I opened my worm castings notes to see, if fulvic acid was a component. Third, I did a little joy-dance, because worm castings contain a good amount of that stuff.

Thanking you muchly, Silky, for helping me improve my worm tea foliar spray by pointing out I should add a wetting agent.

The worms really are miraculous little creatures, David. Next to fulvic acid, their castings also contain:
“- Beneficial bacteria, plant growth hormones, vitamins, enzymes, amino acids, selenium, organic carbon.
- 5 times the available nitrogen, 7 times the available potash, and 1 ½ times the available calcium than found in good topsoil.
- Humic acid: which is a beneficial fungal activator.
- Auxins: an organic substance characterised by its ability to promote growth, particularly in roots. It is an active ingredient in rooting compounds.
- Not a single trace of E.coli, salmonella or other pathogens, as they are destroyed, due to the competition from the active micro flora and intestinal secretions. Most of our human pathogens are anaerobic and cannot survive in the aerobic environment created by worms.
- A “slow release” quality. After digestion, the undigested material-moves through the alimentary canal of the worm, a thin layer of oil is deposited on the castings. This layer erodes over a period of 2 months. So although the plant nutrients immediately available, they are slowly released to last longer.”
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Next thing I’m investing in is an old bathtub … I’m going to build a worm paradise and wait hand and foot on the little deities.

Cheers, Neptune ☺

Which sort of worm farm do you have, Jac?

You guys are amazing , all this research and waking up with a computer on your chest , well done guys , my conclusion from all YOUR hard work , get off my bum and get a worm farm going , pronto !!!

AutumnD, I bought a round Can-O-Worms, because I was going to have it inside in the laundry to keep them cool in summer. I was flabbergasted to see all the farms were black, the worst colour in the heat and thought of ways to ensure I wouldn’t fry the poor things. But putting a worm farm into the laundry was a deal-breaker for James, and I reluctantly had put them outside behind shade cloth anyway. Surprisingly, the box doesn’t heat up; there are little inbuilt ventilation vents, and another tray I can put on when the first builds up.
It cost around the $70.00 mark (don’t remember exactly) and I spend around $120.00 with the worms included; it could have been less – that could have been the Bunnings quote I got over the phone; when I got there the worms were actually less than quoted, because there are two worm suppliers and one is a lot cheaper.
But there’re lots of different ways to get worm tea and many handy DYO hints on The Net. The bathtub provides the largest amount, and that’s what I want now.

Maree, I got the farm, because the organic approach was down my alley and foliar feeds were advocated here. So I did a bit of research and thought, sure I’ll give it a go. I got a definite result within a couple of applications and knew it was good stuff, but I only realized how amazing it was when I got stuck into the real nitty-gritty bits yesterday.