Not what I was expecting!

I'm putting this here but only because I'm not sure where to put it. It might be modern or it might be old, it has small flowers but isn't really a miniature... I thought this rose was my old Dorothy Perkins. I had 13 of my old roses sent down from NSW to here after being baby sitted at my Mum and Dad's place for 7 years... so I was a little hazy about just what I had but this and one other also in a pot are the only ones left to ID. I had Dorothy Perkins and the leaves on this one are just like it... a little limey maybe but the same wichuraiana-type rambler foliage. Buds started to appear (which I found strange... the roses were sent down during winter but we very heavily cut back for their trip so I was not expecting things like Dorothy Perkins to flower at all especially given how long it took me to get it flowering before ), and I was expecting little pink pompoms to appear... then I got these:

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Now.... I don't remember even owning this rose and can't recall ever seeing it before in my life so I have no idea what it is or where it came from... Mum kept trying to tell me that I had a single white rambler and I kept telling her she was imagining things because I've never kept one before. This plant has a large dead stump with it but I can't see any evidence of a long dead graft and I can't imagine anyone ever using a wichuariana-type rose like this as a root-stock. It's very pretty though and a prize I think (I'm a sucker for small single white rose flowers though). The flowers are about 5cm across, and the foliage is quite small. This could be, however, because I have it in a pot because I thought it was DP and was trying to decide where to put it where it won't get out of hand I have another pot of something similar too that is also forming buds that hasn't flowered yet... maybe THIS is my old DP... This almost looks like the species R. wichurana

A Nice surprise Tas, I do like it

Hmmmm: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

It could be anything. Single white= generic rose. All except Dorothy Perkins, she is a pink pom-pom. Why do you think it may be DP Tas? Or am I reading this too late at night

I don't... I did think it was before it flowered... same kind of ramblerish leaves and I owned this one before moving down here. The other one has since flowered and it IS my old DP. This one I think is Rosa wichuraiana... or one called Temple Bells (though I've only seen pictures of this one and so am really only guessing).

That's great! A new variety for you.

Well.... it isn't 'Temple Bells". HMF says TB has 7 petals and this one only has 5.

You don't think that possibly one of your roses died and your parents replaced it and hoped you wouldn't notice That's what Carole would have done Just a thought mate.

Well.... you never know! I guess that's a possibility too. The other thing I was thinking was that maybe when they dug up my ones they also dug up one of their roses and sent it through too figuring one more wouldn't hurt It produces loads of pollen too so I;ve used it once or twice to pollinate other roses too... going for flower carpet style ground cover roses maybe.

Was this rose ever identified?

If not, it looks exactly like my "Heidesommer" right down to the dark buds, foliage shape & colour, 5 white petals & the abundant pollen (which I first noticed just days ago).

Sorry if the mystery has already been solved!

I should add that I have noticed many sites online & some books state that "Heidesommer" is semi-double (even that it has as many as 20 petals) but neither my grafted one (bought in 2002) or my own-root one (bought some years later) has ever had more than 5 petals??? Nor has any other plant of it that I have seen.

Correction: I guess I never looked close enough. I just checked & 1 bloom atm (out of 4) has 7 petals ooooops sorry LOL

Hi Damo,

I also grow Heidesomer and this little plant is not it either. I actually think it is pure Rosa wichurana... which is a bonus as I'm trying to incorporate as many species into crosses before toying with outcrossing to moderns etc

Oh OK. I looked at the list of roses you have but must have missed it...was very tired this morning!

It has me wondering if I have "Heidesommer" then because I took pics of my rose this morning & I could add them to yours & no-one would notice a difference at all. Simon, is your "Heidesommer" similar at least to the mystery rose?

Due to the abundance of pollen I hope to use mine (whatever it is LOL) over a "wild" sweetbriar seedling next year. I will also try "Innocencia", "Pink Bassino" & "Roseromantic".

G'Day Damo,

My 'Heidesommer' is nothing like this rose. This rose has small lime green leaves and flowers that always have only 5 petals. It is typical wichurana and from what I can tell is most likely wichurana. I haven't added 'Heidesommer' to my list yet... there's quite a lot I need to add when I get a little time to update the list

Which 'Innocencia' do you have? Kordes are up to their old tricks again by recycling a name and they have a 1987 rose and a 2003 rose both released under the same name.

One thing to note about the sweet briar... if it's Rosa rubiginosa it is a pentaploid and works differently when used as a pollen parent compared to when used as a seed parent. I don't know how much you know abuot rose ploidy but for what it's worth Rosa rubigonosa is a pentaploid meaning that instead of having two sets of every gene that organisms like us have, and some species roses, like Rosa rugosa, do (known as diploids) it has five sets. During meiosis it makes 4n seeds and 1n pollen. That means if you cross it with a tetraploid, as a pollen parent (4 copies with it), that makes 2n pollen then it should combine to make hexaploids but if you use it as a pollen parent (i.e. 1n pollen) with a tetraploid parent you will get triploids and whilst it is not universally so, a lot of triploids have lower fertility (either way). So choose the ploidy of your parents carefully with sweet briar because it can make a significant difference to the fertility of the offspring.

This is my 'Heidesommer':



A note about "heidesommer', however, is that it is likely to have little or no fertility as it has no listed descendants... it's seed parent is 'The Fairy' crossed with an un-named seedling... chances are it is a triploid givent 'The Fairy' is a diploid.

Good afternoon Simon,

Firstly, to "Heidesommer". Someone got it wrong in a nursery somewhere because my "Heidesommer" is miles away from being like yours above. I wonder if the mystery rose could be "Heideschnee" instead??? It annoys me to know that a big place I visit regularly still sells "Heiesommer" as what I have because obviously it is not correct; I see it constantly! Oh well.

Thankyou for the info on sweetbriars. I try to understand the more scientific aspect to rose genetics & breeding (and yes, some does sink in) but most doesn't stick & I think I am destined to be a rose breeder who dreams of results, does the necessary steps & holds his breath in anticipation! Hahaha...

I have read many of your posts here & in other places with much interest and of course, I drool over your success at raising your own roses. ATM I am merely at the beginning...

Oh also, I have the newer "Innocencia". I bought it the same day as "Wing Ding" & a miniature striped rose I believe might be "Nicola Parade"; I love all 3 very much.

Just wanted to clarify why I thought I had solved the mystery (because it has been bugging me!!!). This is what I was sold as being "Heidesommer":

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More fool me! Hahaha...

Don't write it off too quickly Damo. From the look of it your plant has a very strong wichurana influence and so may be extremely useful to you in breeding. I bet it is as string as an ox and healthy as well. By the look of it your plant will be a pollen machine. Has it ever set OP hips for you and does it repeat flower well?

If this unknwon one of mine keeps repeating like it is at the moment I'm going to go back to thinking it is "Temple Bells'.

EDIT: 'White Immensee' (http://www.helpmefind.com/gardening/l.php?l=2.6492.2&tab=1) is also a possibility.

Also note that 'Heideschnee's leaves don't resembe wichurana.

I think you are right Simon about the wichuraiana & the breeding prospects.

It is a lovely rose that performs beautifully without much care. Not sure about the repeat bloom but it flowers for a very long time. As for hips I cannot recall seeing any (I am not dead-heading it this year & I am watching it carefully so I will soon see). I did find & still have 2 seedlings in the pot with it but I am pretty certain they are from the "Sparrieshoop" that once grew with it.

I will play around with this rose next year for sure...

For the record I believe that your mystery rose & my wrongly identified rose are one & the same Simon. I could have included other pics that exactly mirror yours at the start. I had "Temple Bells" years ago (and I believe it was the real "Temple Bells" LOL) & it was very different from both plants illustrated here...

FWIW I still think we both might have "Heideschnee". I am not sure that it was ever released in Australia though.

Sorry didn't see your post about "Heideschnee" Grrrrrr back to guessing LOL

Note the buds on 'Heideschnee': [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Just ran out & checked & the buds are not similar at all. The open flowers are though. Oh well! I will enjoy it anyway.

TBH I don't like growing unknowns (if I pay money for something I want exactly what I bought LOL). Having said that I do keep & enjoy a few roses I cannot identify. These days I only ever buy roses that are in flower so I cannot get duped...helps me feel better if I can check for RMV as well.