Penelope Tea - Hugo Roller

I will direct this post to Margaret for the interest of all.

Margaret I have a new cane 7" long on a newly budded Penelope Tea that is showing some thorns but not a lot. Some time ago someone was interested in if thornless or thorns. I have read the Tea Book description which mentions "Most bushes thornless but some bushes with varying degrees of prickles".

Is this of any significance to you and is there anything you know further to the above.

I grow four possible Penelope Teas. The two that are most alike have some thorns and are the colour of Double Delight the modern HT. One opinion is that the rose is Hugo Roller. Two bushes can be traced back to four generations of the family having cuttings from each of the bushes.
The others could be mistaken for Mrs Dudley Cross at certain times of the year. These roses have no thorns and can vary from almost cream to in warmer weather, say 30 degrees flushed all over the bloom with pink.
I find it most confusing but I love both. If I knew how to post some pictures I would but I am new to the forum and still finding my way around.

Bruce, where did you get the budwood from . This might have some influence on it. Does it as it gets older on your 7" cane the thorns come on young fleshey wood or on the older wood closer to the union. Just a thought.

If by chance you and Simon have not conversed, this link below should help,
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This could be wrong but Simon will correct it.
The other option is ring me on 0263722020 after dark and I do not mind to help talk you through it over the phone. Best I can do.

Sorry I haven't mastered the art of posting pix as I still don't have a digital camera available at all times. First things first.

However David I will take you up on your offer in the future.

I seem to not have a camera when needed. Last November I had some seedlings on a shelf looking to the window for light. They were all medium to light pink but the blooms ranged from singles to 45 petals. Looked just wonderful when looked at from outside the window in. They were all from the same seed parent.

Sorry, back to Penelope Tea. The thorns appear evenly spread from the the rootstock up the new cane.
Margaret did previously want to know if mine was thornless or thorned for some personal reason.

The budwood came from an older clone propagated in the 1960's.
Wherever possible I go to a lot of trouble to get buds from the oldest rose I can find. The Roundelay not vigorous I mentioned in another post could have been propagated many times over so I found another one of the oldest bush I could find. Also have Roundelay Clg from an old bush budded here.

Bonita 18 nice to see you join in, your description is correct for this rose which comes by the two names. Good to see the Forum expanding for there are so many topics to interest rose growers.

We received two climbing penelope teas from Mistydowns. One has hardly grown and has had a couple of flowers on it. The other has a cane at least 2m long and has had quite a few flowers. They are similar to those described by Bonita sort of like double delight except smaller. I guess if it is Hugo Roller then it is a climbing one which is a rare plant anyway so I am happy.

I also have one that was given to me that came from a plant that was struck from one in Brisbane (supposivly the same origin as the Mistydowns plants). Its flowers have more camine pink than the red on the other and not as much white in the flower. All roses fade to the same colour. This plant also has not "climbed".

I also have the Bundaburg one that looks like Mrs Dudley Cross at times and who knows what at others. No idea what this one really is.

We also have one that we got somewhere which is planted near Hugo Roller which look and grow slightly differently but this could be my imagination.

Maxine Roses at Laidley has a penelope growing in the garden but the ones shes sold me are more like the Bundaberg one despite maxine telling me that they were budded from the one in the garden.

Gary you know I mentioned to you that a climbing sport of a bush rose will revert back to the non climber unless the buds are taken from the climbing cane. The lower growth on a climber are not 100% reliable producing a climber. I have two Penelope climbers from Misty that I hope will climb but am not 100% confident.

The Lorraine Lee Clg I budded for you came from a cane I had to get on a ladder to cut the buds. These will definately be climbers.

Imagine a bush rose with one climbing cane appearing. All the buds on this cane should produce climbers and lower down there will be a lot of bush bush roses also. Lower groth is not reliable.

Gary, the 2 you got from "misty" are the rootstocks the "same" as in type, thickness, other similarities or dissimilarities.

Bruce.

The one that was given to me came from a climbing cane but it was cutting grown so may take a little time to start climbing.

roseman.

The rootstock looks the same but it is a bit hard to tell. The roses are planted in different parts of the garden so maybe that has something to do with it.

As a little bit of a distraction... when I was learning how to bud I did a number of 'Pierre de Ronsard' grafts and I didn't pay too much attention to where the buds came from. I am now much more selective in which buds I choose. They were all grafted onto multiflora and I still have all of them. Some of the PDR plant want to climb, producing long canes. I have a few, however, that have remained small like shrubs. They've been in pots for a long time now and I was thinking this winter I would try to rejuvenate them and put them all in the ground to see if any changes took place. A shrub form of PDR sounds quite appealing to me

How about the earth area to plant area for growth, one thought, Simon.
Why winter and not now would they not get sme good root growth from the warmer soil.

cos I can't keep the water up to it atm... I like to plant things out when the soil is wet.

All are in the same sized pots... some climb, some don't.

A climber that hasn't come from a bush rose as a sport is more reliable to produce climbers from all buds though always take the buds from the climbing canes just in case.

When a variety starts off as a bush rose that produces a long climbing cane sport there are 2 types bush and climbing on the same bush. Buds or cuttings taken from the climbing cane should produce 100% climbers. Buds or cuttings taken from the bush part of the plant will usually produce 100% bush.

When the climbers produced from the Clg cane are growing they can't be relied upon to produce all Clg if the buds are not taken from the Clg canes.

That is why so many roses bought as climbers may not climb.

Trust me, I take all Clg buds from the very long canes towards the end where the buds are the right age for budding.

Has anyone grown the 'Penelope' (Tea) from Hedgerow?

yep I have it here in deniliquin, why is that?

There is a lot of discussion about the true identity of it and there seems to be a lot of different candidates around. Just wondering how this one compares to the others, is it the same as the others, is it a good contender for the ortiginal, etc?

I have two climbers from Hedgerow and they look as though they will climb.

I did bud some bush last season and the Heritage Rose people took them all, even the one I was keeping for myself.

Warren I will swap you a Penelope for any of mine you want.

I have been collecting what I call Penelope possibilities -
Goombungee Garden ROR - a former worker at Langbeckers in Bundaberg says how he remembers Penelope but substition took place sometimes. From Trewallyn's Nursery - David Ruston's Penelope and Ron Treloar's Penelope. Marburg Penelope - have history for four generations who have grown it
Gympie Penelope - just got cuttings recently
I know of Gayndah Penelope and hope to get it as well as one from CooyarI do not have Boonah Penelope but have Penelope[b]Maxine's Laidley Penelope
HRIAI will have all these ones soon I hope. I think it is likely that Penelope will be found to still be in Qld as it was bred in Brisbane and all of these places are within a few hours drive of where it was bred. It is also likely that it would do well here as it is growing in the climate it was bred for.
I have photos but as yet have not been successful in posting photos to Rosetalk other than the ones on my personal page.

Yesterday I spoke to the owner o70 plus year old climbing Penelope Tea. The bush used to reach up to the kitchen window of a high set old queenslander. The bush had to be cut right down and new growth has appeared but it would be too early to tell whether or not it will climb once more. Perhaps age made it in to a climbr because it had not been touched very much? Perhaps we tidy up roses too much and are completely unaware of their full potential. Just a thought.

Bonita

We have a couple of the "Penelope Tea" climbers from about the place. One came for Peter and Rita's in Brisbane and the other from Mistydowns. The latter has climbed up and over onto a Pergola where we have Mrs Graham Hart growing and is spreading out over the top.

We did purchase a couple from Maxine but one was a safrano and the other a purple coloured thing. Neither are anything like the plant she has in her garden.

We also purchased one from Bundaberg but I am not sure exactly what it is. It is a creamy sort of colour with a bit of pink around the outside.

I agree there is sure to one somewhere in Queensland but I think the biggest problem will be identifying it and having everyone accept this.

I also agree about the growth habit of Teas. Our Mrs BR Cant grows 3 metres plus and we have a Mme Lambard that is also that high.

Yes you are right that the biggest problem will be having out of state people accept this. Oh to have had colour photography back in the early 20th century when she was in her prime.
I think that I heard that Rita's climber which I have never seen was sent off to Misty Downs. I hope I am not entirely wrong about that. Plants that climb in Qld's climate may not climb in other places - I undertstand that David Austin could not get over the climbing tendencies he saw in his demure DAs in the U.K. By the way, did you know that Penny is bringing David Ruston to Pittsworth next Friday for a full day - $20 including lunch and flower demonstrations. You would need to book immmediately through Penny as there are 150places and as at this morning there were about 123 spots taken.

I have sent my climbing BR Cant to Renmark to see if it climbs down there. It will be interesting to see.

My wife is taking the mother in law to see David at Leonie Kearney's place next weekend.

Below is a couple of photos that I took at Rita's of her "Penelope"

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The flowers are the same as the one we got from Mistydowns and also the ones on the plant that came from a cutting of a cutting of Ritas though this one is not climbing linke the Mistydowns one,

Just to throw a spanner in some of the Hugo Roller-Penelope debate. Both the shrubs of "Penelope" and Hogo Roller have mildew this year (but then again it the worst year in memory for the stuff) but our climbing Penelope does not show any signs of it.
Most discussion has been about how HR was substituted for Penelope because of the latters suseptabiity to the rottten stuff while HG seemed to be imune to it.

Gary, could the Clb Penelope, not have it because it it is getting 'airflow' higher up .
The other thing that comes to mind, but might be your 'forte' Gary, could you not take a flower from each and do petal count, a leaf side by side and count seratioins, thorns, wood colour or any other things to see 'if' there is a difference, only a thought, David.